Sabre rattling in Spain | 42 comments (42 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

great, uber-post...and diary and all!!!

The fast dismissal and the lack of forceful PP response has made the right-wing in Spain lose track. The near future seems good for the left-wing government in Spain. Their clear left-wing you can hardly find that any more in Europe) social policies are kicking asses and the center policies on the economy seem to keep the economy... for now...going

Regarding the catalan statue, it is bascially known that there exists a pact about the differnt parties (except right-wing PP) every single-item except for one: Money.

The new judicial system for catalonia, the new distribution of power, language and probably even the definition of Catalonia (as someone wrote today in La vanguardia... Catalonia is a weird place that has more political autonomy then Scotland but less symbolic atuonomy. An Area with less political power than Baviera but with more money and taxes than South Carolina. A place with more political autonomy than Flandes but less control over taxes than the Basque Country... you can guess it is a very difficult thing to define)...all the changes proposed by the left-wing governemnt in Madrid have been accepted by the Catalna parties...But the problem of what taxes are collected by who is the last unsolved issue.

Why? well...two things. First issue is whether the Catalan system of taxes should be different than other regions and nations in Spain (never as independent as in the basque country), or, on the other hand, the system should apply for all the regions and areas in Spain... Deciding which things would be general and which particular is really a tough game since PSOE also controls other importnat regions and nations in Spain which are sources of a great deal of their votes and in need of money...so they have to be very careful not to affect economically these regions.

The second issue on money is, of course, pure central/federal dispute. This is, once it is decided which things will be general (and I advance that most of the tax system in Catalonia will be extended to all Spain..because PSOE can not affor to do otherwise).. the question is.. how much will be "these things"? how much money will the central government leave to the different regions of Spain...

This is the key of the double political fight. As Migeru said,a typical political fight which now reduces to money, taxes, resources, etc...a typical political fight that some people are always interested to use as a Spaniards-against-Spaniards stuff.. it gives votes, you know.

Great Stuff Migeru!!!!!

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 01:22:22 PM EST

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 0)

It is saddening that this regional let's-keep-our-taxes-for-ourselves fight is fought by leftists in Catalonia. This goes along with the theme of a Social Democratism-critical diary I promised to Colman to write...

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 01:27:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (4.00 / 2)

There are two main reasons why a left-wing government would act as you say.

I guess one is sad, let's say that it is about power of course and asking for as much money as the ratio of the GDP produced by Catalonia minus a direct sum uniquely dedicated to solidarity, goes with the idea of getting more power and votes.

The second one makes more sense. It is about the resources invested in catalonia on Social Security-Medicair and on infraestructures. The reason is simple, poor people in Catalonia recieve much more less money per person than an poor citizen in other parts of Spain. Why that if catalonia is so rich? Simple, the central government has reduced the investment in catalonia. So, if Catalonia represents roughly 17% of the population, only 15% of the governments money in this two main issues is spent in Catalonia (Catalonia represent roughly 20% of the economy). You may say that this is because there is need extra money for the poor regions.. but the key point of the left-wing in catalonia is that this is false!! And they are right on this. Actually the city of Madrid receives their fair share of investments according to populations and other rich areas too. It may seem incredible but the poor neighbourhoods of the community of MAdrid (Surroudning the city of Madrid) and the poor areas surrounding Barcelona pay this extra price.

The solution is obvious, asking for a huge investements in those two areas according to population. Catalonia gets more money on their taxes which, ideally, should go to these areas (not necessarily true...).Catalonia would "give" the extra 2-3 point in GDP to help other communities (not a direct sum which would diminish over time as now proposed). The community of Madrid could do the same.

But of course, if you are bargaining you must ask for the moon so that you settle on the above scenario.This is why the statue for catalonia also asks to receive in the future the taxes according to GDP minus a direct contribution on solidarity. This would mean that, if the poor regions of Spain had to receive the same amount of money, the city of Madrid and Basque Country and Navarra would have to lose their present privileges. This is plainly impossible...these privileges are written in the Consititution of Spain

And let us always remember who are the main losers on all this, the poor cities and neighboorhoods in Madrid and Barcelona. The PSOE government has tried to solve the problem on Social-Security but these two badly needed areas (Madrid and Barcelona surroundings) were to receive the investements the poor deserves... where would the money come from?
From the privilege situation of Madrid-city, basque Country and Navarra or by reducing the present spenditures in other areas and regions of Spain that are not that rich....? This is the incredible contradiction of having the most rich areas side by side with the poorest... Surprisingly enough and more contradictory even, if these two poor areas were allowed to direct the production of their taxes on themselves they would be better-off because....just beside the poor concentrations there are technological and industrial areas...just a few kilometers away but years of light away in economic terms.

I could give you examples of el Prat del Llobregat (poor town with really bad services and left-wing workers) side by side with a mega-technological-logistic center. And I could even think about some examples of Madrid.. Migeru can give the answer for me but "El Pozo del tio Ramundo" (the poorest of the poorest areas in Madrid") is not that far away kilometers away from the new Soth(-eastern?) technological-scientific park on aero-spatial and biotechnology...and I do not go on with other cities around Madrid as Getafe, Leganes...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 03:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 0)

Thanks for giving the deeper picture! But I have one quibble:

The second one makes more sense. It is about the resources invested in catalonia on Social Security-Medicair and on infraestructures.

You convinced me on the first, but I think infrastructures is at least a more complex issue. Per capita GDP (or average earnings) doesn't express the as-is level of the infrastructure - and even if Catalonia has regions as poor or poorer as Extramadura, it has a better transport network or (I'm guessing) canalisation.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 9th, 2006 at 07:11:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 0)

Dead on. Infraestructure is more complex.
Investement in infraestructure in Catalonia is smaller than the ratio of population. And not all infraestructures are social infraestrucuture.

Can you imagine the mess in the number on how to count roads, airports and so on and on and on? In theory , this should be ivnested mainly by the central government now... so who would take care from now on? A part will help poor areas but most of it it is linked to the comparison wiht the level of infraestructures on airports, public transport and roads in the other big center: Madrid. How much money in the future and compared with what others areas of Spain?

So, yes you are right, the topic of infraestructure is such a mess that I doubt I/they can convince anybody. Even people working on it do not have the things clear (every six months the catalan govermnemnt asks the central governemnt to perform and release a study on the subject so to have some numbers....no way to get it). In any case the governemnt in catalonia should have a level of investment according to population (3 points less than the GDP) in infraestructure, I do not care where it comes from.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Jan 9th, 2006 at 10:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 0)

I was possibly not clear on this the first time: I think the existing infrastructure of Catalonia is more developed than that of other regions, thus it deserves less investment than those other regions, per capita. With your additions to just how complex the infrastructure issue is, I suggest on some fields this could be managed: say, there is reliable statistics on social infrastructure like canalisation, you could make investment in that field an inverse function of the ratio of already canalised homes. (Do you know anything about how social infrastructure spending, as opposed to transport stuff, is divided up now?)

On the other hand, say, metro stations or bus routes into poor suburbs could be financed in a population+income-based way that ends up giving more to Madrid and Barcelona than other areas.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 9th, 2006 at 11:43:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 0)

Well, I'm sure glad that our resident Catalan agrees with my take on these things.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 02:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 1)

The fast dismissal and the lack of forceful PP response has made the right-wing in Spain lose track. The near future seems good for the left-wing government in Spain. Their clear left-wing (you can hardly find that any more in Europe) social policies are kicking asses and the center policies on the economy seem to keep the economy... for now...going

I sincerely hope you're right. If the PP does worse in the next general election (2007/8) than in 2004, I expect a split between the moderate and radical wings of the party. Ideally, there would be a larger Liberal/Christian Democrat party and a smaller Wingnut Spanish Nationalist party.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 03:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 1)

the center policies on the economy seem to keep the economy... for now...going

Ceck out this pearl by our Minister for Economy and Finance, Pedro Solbes (EU Coommissioner for Monetary Affairs under Prodi):

La Vanguardia: Pedro Solbes: "The State must also be autonomous and not depend on the Autonomous Communities" (2006 January 4)
Which is to say, despite the Spanish economic model not really pleasing anyone, it still keeps its resilience and appeal
Well, the current economic model is not sustainable in time. There are very strong imbalances that it is urgent to correct y hay que hacerlo ahora que la situación económica va a seguir siendo de un crecimiento intenso en los próximos años. It is true that there has not been as radical a change as we expected, but there is a number of factors which have started to change. For example, interest rates not only will not go down, but they will increase. EU funding, which once represented more than 10 billion net for Spain, have begun to be cut. Massive immigration, which was the third great motor of the economy, has ended.
When will the model change?
We are going to keep working at increasing productivity and reducing protectionism, seeking more efficient markets and introducing greater competition in sector such as energy, telecommunications or services, among others. Moreover, we will work to achieve a more efficient Administration. One thing is clear, although the economy is going well, the current economic model is not sustainable in time.

It is a rare Economy or Finance minister that admits so candidly that the current economic model is unsustainable, twice in the same interview and without being cued by the interviewer. My respect for Solbes only increases: this guy is for real, all substance and no fluff.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 05:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Absolutely (none / 0)

Here in catalonia there are two strong defenders of him, and they are big shots in the media. F Estape , one of the forme chiefs of the stabilization program in the 60s and now retired (with strong old social-democrat tendencies) say she, and the guy in charged of taxes, are no-bullshit people, no stupid non-sense, all raw meat. When they speak... they speak.

The other one. J Barbeta has exactly the same opinion.
P. Solbes is pure center-pragmatic, no-nonsense guy..and all surrounded by a Heidi's grandfather outlook.

I couldn't agree more...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Jan 9th, 2006 at 03:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 0)

Oh I meant "he is a..."..

And by the way.. Where else in Spain can you hear that massive inmigration was one of the motor of the economy (obvious if you are economist but..) in Spain?

Furthermore I mostly agree with his ideas about the model...Go figure.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Jan 9th, 2006 at 04:02:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 1)

And by the way.. Where else in Spain can you hear that massive inmigration was one of the motor of the economy (obvious if you are economist but..) in Spain?

I think on immigration and the economy, there are two extremes equally wrong: the xenophobic they-steal-our-jobs version and the neoliberal version, and from the above Solbes seems closer to the latter.

What I mean is that with immigration, both the workforce and the consumer basis (and hence the size of the economy) grows, and both the reduction of average pay in some jobs and the fill-up of other jobs with a shortage of workers happens. That is, I believe the net result is close to balanced, but the xenophobes will concentrate on the firsts and the neoliberals on the seconds of these two pairs.

To concentrate criticism on the neoliberal version, overall GDP growth only matters for the richest industrialists (who can raise their profits and sales without having to consider the appearance of new competitors), but what matters for everyone is per capita GDP (or even more: average pay) growth.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 9th, 2006 at 07:25:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lovely to watch..:!!! (none / 0)

Of course I was refering to the particular case of Spain. The benefits were much more bigger than the faults because the base-line of inmigrants was extremely low and the requirements of the Spanish economy made it specially helpful.

It does not meaa that all cases arte like Spain, not even that in the future Spain will benefit as much as now...It will depend. good to remember that it may depend.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Jan 9th, 2006 at 10:35:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sabre rattling in Spain | 42 comments (42 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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