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Of course there are people who do a poor job of expressing themselves, even as administration advisors or eurotrib commentators.

What is not captured here is the broad exasperation with Europe that seems to be the general mood in America today. Most Americans have their cultural roots in Europe and want to see Europe in a positive light. And most Americans are not happy with the situation in Iraq, and how we got to where we are.

But I do not think that there would be much complaining at all here if we were to close down our European military bases, withdraw from NATO, not worry about Iran or Palestine or Turkey, and just hunker down over on our side of the pond. There is a strong isolationist tendency in America; the same one that caused us to not ratify the Treaty of Versailles, nor join the League of Nations or the International Court of Justice after the first world war, and that kept us out of the second world war for four years. It's not completely disappeared.

It sure would be nice if we could all manage to elect cooperative leadership.

by asdf on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 01:34:17 PM EST
The exasperation with Europe is that of the administration, which was then to a compliant - and hysterical, at that time - media.

Blame Europe all you want, but it says volumes that neither Mexico or Chile (nor Canada, beyond the SC), countries more usually associated with the US sphere of influence than the European one, would not support George's splendid adventure in Iraq. In fact, the only countries that, out of misplaced loyalty, supported the USA in that crazy war were Europeans (the UK, Spain Bulgaria - and I am talking aobut the governments, not the people, and only about the Security Council vote)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 01:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think asdf didn't just meant Iraq (and possibly meant ex-Yugoslavia more, tho' I would disagree with him on that still being a point for the majority of US isolationists), and was more describing US public opinion (see my reply to Colman) than his own.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 02:05:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You think this guy is doing a poor job of expressing himself?  

As for exasperation with Europe and dissatisfaction with Iraq, we damn well told the US so, the US decided it knew better, and look what happened. What do you want? We should have followed the US into a criminal clusterfuck? There should be Irish troops dying in IED explosions because Bush wanted rid of Saddam? What are you talking about?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 01:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was more talking about US public opinion vs US government opinion. What he is trying to suggest is that it is more the bipartisan US political elite that is high on imperialism, while the population is isolationist - whether for the right (leave the world alone, let Europe solve Europe's problems) or wrong (fucking Europeans didn't help us in Iraq) reasons is not his point.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 02:02:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The U.S. population may be largely isolationist but it is even to a greater degree deeply addicted to the consumer bonanza imperialism offers them. I may be mistaken but I thought the U.S. got rich in WW I by lending money to France, effectively transforming the US from a debtor country to a creditor one. I read that somewhere but I haven't checked the statement's veracity. Get involved abroad and profit, see Iraq.

Above, adsf, I think, glibly tells us the US public would gladly withdraw from various parts of the world, which, in fact, is a political and economic impossibility for any US government. The US would lose most influence and become a completely different place. Better? I doubt it. More reactionary and estranged from the rest of the world. The US public has long been addicted to power. Just imagine if they couldn't qualify themselves as 'the richest and most powerful country in the world'.

What a droll idea: blaming Europe for the US horror show in Iraq. The notion is nuts.

This Hanson guy has the Greek tic: ancient Greece is the cradle of western civilization and therefore encapsulates everything that followed. You can see this as a humanistic pendant of the legend of Genesis. Was he born rich? Anyway, philologists of this bent have always struck me as irritatingly snobbish.

by Quentin on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 02:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I may be mistaken but I thought the U.S. got rich in WW I by lending money to France, effectively transforming the US from a debtor country to a creditor one.
I would suggest you check that theory.  I've never heard of it, and I don't think it's correct.  America had many new technologies to develop and grow in the '20's.  Automobiles were coming off a better developed and continuing to evolve production lines.  Roads had to be built.  Steel had to be produced.  People were moving from the farms to the cities, as farming was getting some automation.  It's hard for me to understand logic that would say America got rich off of a few interest rate points on loans to the French.

I think history does show us that a number of European countries did benefit from their colonies, in the sense of bringing back goods to the mother country from the colonies.  I don't say that pejoratively, but just factually.

Get involved abroad and profit, see Iraq.
Surely you jest.  Just look at the billions being poured into Iraq for rebuilding and to support our military.  The idea of Iraq may have been ill conceived, but even those who conceived it never thought of it as a colony to bring money back from.  How could that have ever happened?

I certainly agree with you that Europe can't be blamed for Iraq.

But I think you underestimate the number of Americans who would prefer a much more isolationist view for America than our current policies.  Unfortunately I can't recall the poll, but in the last month I saw one with some discussion that showed 1/3 of liberals and 1/3 of conservatives preferred this--though for different reasons.  And this has been an American view for hundreds of years.  And I would think a large group in the middle would go along with this, if it was at all realistic in the sense of being able to renegotiate current commitments.  We're starting to pull troops out of Europe, Germany first, I believe.  I don't see why, with the end of the Cold War, we should have a military presence in Europe.  The Europeans don't need us there, and I don't think they really want us there.  So why be there?  Let's leave--not recklessly or urgently, but with some appropriate planning with the EU so things we are doing that are useful there, they can pick up those activities if they choose.

Please don't see me as defending this gentleman's article, either.  I'm just making these points above.

by wchurchill on Sun Jan 8th, 2006 at 09:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All good points, wc.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jan 9th, 2006 at 04:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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