Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
(What I mean is, you start with 3 coins (two sides--each coin is binary, but you throw them at the same time); these produce one of 4 line types (broken-moving; broken-not-moving; unbroken-moving; unbroken-not-moving), which build one of 64 hexagrams, each of which can have between 0 - 6 moving lines, and if there is more than one moving line a new hexagram is formed...  No basic Yes/No, On/Off 1/0 moment.  

But I may have misunderstood everything.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 08:27:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are sixty four possible combinations of broken and unbroken lines.  These are the sixty four hexagrams of the I Ching.

2^6 = 64

The way broken/unbroken and moving/unmoving interact is an operation of binary numbers ["moving" = "add one modulo two"].

The bit about using the three coins to produce the numbers 0-3 and to assign these to two binary values is rather confusing, you don't give the details

The correct probability has been used also in the marble, bean, dice and two or four coin methods below. This probability is significantly different from that of the three-coin method, because the required amount of accuracy occupies four binary bits of information, so three coins is one bit short. In terms of chances-out-of-sixteen, the three-coin method yields 2,2,6,6 instead of 1,3,5,7 for old-yin, old-yang, young-yang, young-yin respectively.
I don't know that there is much to understand, you just start with dualistic philosophy and binary numbers and let your imagination fly.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 10:52:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know that there is much to understand, you just start with dualistic philosophy and binary numbers and let your imagination fly.

Could you expand on the dualistic philosophy part?  (I thought the One God religions were the dualistic ones.)

----------

Here's how I understand the numbering (not that it's important, but I havenae a game of Go to play at ze moment, so here goes:)

You have three coins, each of which has two faces, A and B (I think some coins have a bare side and an inscribed side)

The coins are thrown on up in the air, say, and as they land each coin can be in position A or B, which leads to 4 possible combinations of the coins:

AAA (all face up)
BBB (all face down)
ABB (two face down; one face up)
BAA (two face up; one face down)

The lines are composed thusly:

All face up = unbroken line, moving
Only one face up = unbroken non-moving line (the "little" yang, I think it's called)
All face down = broken line, moving
Only one face down = broken non-moving line (the little yin)

So you start with three coins and produce one of four possible results.  The only addition is in seeing how each coin turned out.  One part of the I-Ching philosphy (as I understand it) is that it would not be the same to throw one coin three times.  There has to be that gesture of throwing something into the present moment, a gesture from you into the NOW which can react with all the NOW around it.  You disrupt the harmony, you inject something into it.

The I-Ching as I understand it only answers questions, hence it is an oracle.  You have to have a question, then throw your coins.  Or not.  Issa very flexible system if you lose the ritual rigidity.

The key is whether one finds the various images and judgments related to the 64 hexagrams to one's liking.  They describe a process of birth, decay, rebirth, etc.  If I remember rightly (probably not...) the sign of six unbroken lines...let me check...wikipedia is slow today...anyway, one of the hexagrams means "perfect balance," but this is a sign of coming danger, because anything in perfect balance is about to be lose its balance...

Yap yap!  Tell me more about the dualistic philosphy.  I hold to the taoist line that to posit one thing is to posit its opposite not because that is the truth of nature, but that it is the truth of positing qualities (yellow = not yellow somewhere etc.)..

wikipedia is back!

Binary sequence
In his article Explication de l'Arithmétique Binaire (1703) Gottfried Leibniz writes that he has found in the hexagrams a base for claiming the universality of the binary numeral system. He takes the layout of the combinatorial exercise found in the hexagrams to represent binary sequences, so that ¦¦¦¦¦¦ would correspond to the binary sequence 000000 and ¦¦¦¦¦| would be 000001, and so forth.

The binary arrangement of hexagrams was developed by the famous Chinese scholar and philosopher Shao Yung (a neo-Confucian and Taoist) in the 11th century. He displayed it in two different formats, a circle, and a rectangular block. Thus, he clearly understood the sequence represented a logical progression of values. However, while it is true that these sequences do represent the values 0 through 63 in a binary display, there is no evidence that Shao understood that the numbers could be used in computations such as addition or subtraction.



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 11:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could you expand on the dualistic philosophy part?  (I thought the One God religions were the dualistic ones.)

The monotheistic religions are not dualistic. Satan is not on a par with God.

Zoroastrianism, Manicheism, those were dualistic and theistic (or so I remember).

Eastern philosophies are full of dualism and the balance of opposites, I thought you knew more about that than I? Ying/Yang, etc, is what I meant.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 11:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the idea of the ancient eastern religions was that unity was fragmented by "seeming" opposites, hence yin and yang are coiled round each other and each has an "eye" which is the other.

...whereas although there is the claim in the One God religions that the One God is superior in all aspects to everything else (Creator of All), on analysis their thinking--and logic--is of the In/Out variety.  You are chosen, or you're not.  You go to heaven, or you go to hell.  Once the mystics (sufis etc.) get involved this all falls apart, as it does when one examines the concepts, hence the position of the heretic...or sommat.

I think I'm at that Wittgenstien moment...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 11:43:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The text of the I Ching is a set of predictions represented by a set of 64 abstract line arrangements called hexagrams (卦 guà). Although just the numbers 1 to 64 could have been used, the ancient Chinese instead used a figure composed of six stacked horizontal lines (爻 yáo). Each line is either Yang (an unbroken, or solid line), or Yin (broken, an open line with a gap in the centre). With six such lines stacked from bottom to top there are 26 or 64 possible combinations, and thus 64 hexagrams represented.

...

Each hexagram represents a description of a state or process. When a hexagram is cast using one of the traditional processes of divination with I Ching, each of the yin or yang lines will be indicated as either moving (that is, changing), or fixed (that is, unchanging). Moving (also sometimes called "old", or "unstable") lines will change to their opposites, that is "young" lines of the other type -- old yang becoming young yin, and old yin becoming young yang.

...

The solid line represents yang, the creative principle. The open line represents yin, the receptive principle. These principles are also represented in a common circular symbol (☯), known as taijitu (太極圖), but more commonly known in the west as the yin-yang (陰陽) diagram, expressing the idea of complementarity of changes: when Yang is at top, Yin is increasing, and the reverse.

...

Yin and yang, while common expressions associated with many schools known from classical Chinese culture, are especially associated with the Taoists.

The concepts of Yin and Yang originate in ancient Chinese philosophy and metaphysics, which describes two primal opposing but complementary forces found in all things in the universe. Yin (Chinese: 陰阴; pinyin: yīn; literally "shady place, north slope (hill), south bank (river); cloudy, overcast") is the darker element; it is sad, passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night. Yang (陽阳; yáng; "sunny place, south slope (hill), north bank (river); sunshine") is the brighter element; it is happy, active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the day. Yin is often symbolized by water, while Yang is symbolized by fire.

Yin (feminine, dark, passive force) and Yang (masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any Yin/Yang dichotomy can be seen as its opposite when viewed from another perspective. The categorisation is seen as one of convenience. Most forces in nature can be seen as having Yin and Yang states, and the two are usually in movement rather than held in absolute stasis.

If that is not dualism I don't know what is.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 11:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These principles are also represented in a common circular symbol (☯), known as taijitu (太極圖), but more commonly known in the west as the yin-yang (陰陽) diagram, expressing the idea of complementarity of changes

Any Yin/Yang dichotomy can be seen as its opposite when viewed from another perspective.

Perhaps I'm thinking of dualism as meaning "two separate things", whereas I take the above to mean "you can always find an opposite for a posit, but this doesn't mean there are two separate things you are positing."

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 12:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure it's a useful distinction.

The obvious difference for me is that Western beliefs are based on static abstract principles. (I know I've mentioned this twice already, but the static part seems to be really important.)

Eastern ideas seem much more dynamic. Male and female are dynamics of change that transform into each other, rather than being fixed states of being. The movement is as important as the description - hence the idea that any line in a hexagram can potentially be moving.

Everything is in dynamic equilibrium, and tiny changes can have very significant results. This is very different to the Western view, where - effectively - everything is made of blocks that can be nested and stacked and don't change, except to a limited extent in combination.

That's why we have big hulking words like 'government' and 'job' and 'marriage' and struggle with the idea that these are mutable processes, not fixed things.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 04:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you go far back in Western thought you can find a Greek philosopher suggesting just about any idea you like. Quite a few of them were dualistic in a sense not unlike the Eastern one, and on whether principles are static or dynamic you have Heraclitus' Panta Rei (Everything flows and nothing is left unchanged) versus Parmenides' aletheia (the reality of the world is 'One Being': an unchanging, ungenerated, indestructible whole).

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 06:28:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series