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the tarot, mucking into that old blood magic, scary thoughts about hangmen and witches...

I'll have to psyche myself up.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 04:34:52 AM EST
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Tarot is another Rorschach tool.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 04:43:41 AM EST
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A simple test:

People travelling (transporting their bodies) tend to transport their minds and become unaware of their immediate surroundings. That is why it is possible to travel several miles on a motorway with no memory of that part of the journey. A lack of novelty disconnects us. This is the normal humdrum state of many people.

But if you place the word 'Blue' in travelling people's minds, they will see blue everywhere they look. Or red. It will appear as if blue (or red) has some significance.

The world is unsurprisingly full of random coincidences. If you are in humdrum state, you won't be aware of most of them. But if you are, in the zen sense, fully aware, you will notice many of them.

And, if you are 'tuned in', or sensitised, you may impose significance on these random events. But there is no significance, except internally.

There is no statistical evidence that Friday 13th is more dangerous than any other, or that walking under ladders, or seeing black cats have any significance other than heightening sensitivity to other events that occur in association.

My position is that all these are internally significant (ie in the mind), but externally (as a descritpion of reality) insignificant. Such things as the I-Ching or the Tarot are interesting to study for the internal effects.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 05:20:16 AM EST
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Nothing wrong with Tarot as a storytelling aid. Instead of calling the reader "diviner" they should be called "storyteller".

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 05:52:14 AM EST
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Most of everyday life is taken up with the exchange of parables and metaphors between close people. Even narratives about sport (!) usually contain 'meaning', with the 'meaning' never explained or made overt, but implicit in the narrative.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 06:15:49 AM EST
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The world is unsurprisingly full of random coincidences. If you are in humdrum state, you won't be aware of most of them. But if you are, in the zen sense, fully aware, you will notice many of them.

Not quite. If you're truly in the Zen state, more coincidences will happen.

And they will be outrageous coincidences that have no business happening, and simply don't happen at all when you're not in the Zen state.

Selective attention only goes so far as an explanation. (Based on my experience, anyway.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 08:53:52 AM EST
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To be truly in the zen state allows for no coincidences at all! You are in the moment, the moment is eternal. There is no time differentiation for coincidence to happen. There is no meaning in anything because everything is the meaning.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 09:09:51 AM EST
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Possibly.

But that doesn't explain the outrageous coincidences.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 09:13:43 AM EST
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A truly zen argument gentlemen.  Very enjoyable.

Here's a koan for ye.

JOSHU, an old monk, was making a pot of tea in the main hall when he spotted a monk he'd never seen before.  He called the monk over.

"I'm old and forgetful," said Joshu.  "Have I met you before?"

The monk answered, "No sir, you have not."

"Well then, sit down and have a cup of tea with me," said Joshu.

Another monk came up to ask Joshu a question.

"I'm old and forgetful," said Joshu.  "Have I met you before?"

"Yes sir, of course you have," said the second monk.

"Well then, sit down and have a cup of tea with me," said Joshu.

Later, when the others were gone, the managing monk of the monastery came over to Joshu, who was making another pot of tea.

"How is it," said the manager, "that you make the same offer of tea whatever the reply to your
question?"

At this Joshu stood up.

"Manager!" he shouted.  "Are you still here?"

"Of course I am!" the manager answered.

"Well then, sit down and have a cup of tea with me," said Joshu.

(Stolen and modified from here.)



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 10:41:21 AM EST
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Mu.

(Or as we call it in the UK - Mornington Crescent.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 11:25:22 AM EST
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Funny coincidence: I was just about to not say that ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 11:12:01 AM EST
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I don't think they're attempting the same thing.

Rorschach ink blot.

(A butterfly?  A strange alien being shooting goo?)

The Tarot Card for The Fool.

What it means I have no idea whatsoever, but I don't think it's doing the same kind of work as the ink blot.

Mind you, I no nosseeng about the tarot and have had a prejudiced aversion to the cards--and what I thought of as the concept--based on past experience with...well...with depressed people in long skirts...and telly programmes with old ladies who cackled, or princesses and treasures and woe to ye!

But I will fight my prejudices!



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 08:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Rorschach Test depends on the brain's attempts to find logic in visual symbols when it is not present, especially when the search for logic is induced by suggestion.

If you remember my diary on the Matrix Collision?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 08:25:38 AM EST
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I thought the rorschach test didn't involve suggestion, only "What do you see?" (the person asking the question must make a difference.)

From what I see, tarot involves multiple (contradictory?) suggestions and so is a gothic (oldie woldie) tool for opening thought processes a la your comments above; whereas the I-Ching involves a cohesive world view broken into 64 parts with each part subdivided into 6 (and also into twos and threes) which subdivisions change the meaning of the 64 parts and feed one into the other.

So, I think there is internal logic to the I-Ching, there is human interaction with the tarot, and the ink blot is the interaction of unconscious structures with a single outside event...

(Or sommat...I'm not sure I expressed the rorschach bit correctly...)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 08:38:04 AM EST
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(I do remember your excellent diary ;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 08:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just asking 'What do you see?' is suggestive.

Were you to read Papus' book the Tarot of the Bohemians, you would find the idea that underneath the divisions of the major and minor arcana there are hermetic concepts such as male-female-progeny-recycle, the yod as the life force derived from the name of god, and a whole bunch of other seemingly intricately woven logic. Just as with the I-Ching. These structures are, of course ;-), projected onto a bit of culture i.e. the original authors, or an evolving set of authors, rorschached their own interpretation of sigils and signs laying about in their cultural matrix.

Nobody asked them to do it, but life itself kind of asked them "What do you see?"

A cricket match would hardly be self-explanatory to someone who had never heard or seen it before, and who had no cultural references for it. They might try to explain it in their own terms (14 men in white go into a big field, put six sticks in the ground, and then it rains) orm like the Cargo Cult of PNG, they see things beyond their understanding such as aeroplanes which land and disgorge gifts and assume that it is the pattern of the layout of the airfield that is attracting these 'birds' from the sky. Since they want the gifts too, they build their own 'landing strips' to attract the birds.

What you see is only what you are able to see with the references that you have.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 09:06:17 AM EST
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rg, interesting and intuitive choice your fool, especially after rereading the comments. The Fool is considered the Higher Consciousness or some call it Soul, that always is and never dies - eternally blissful, just before descenting into the valley of life, ready for new experiences and challenges.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 18th, 2006 at 08:23:04 AM EST
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what would bucky say?

don't fight forces, use them!

sometimes the scary ones have the most secrets to unpack.

good points about the story.

life as myth..where is kcurie?

old plots recycled, same circus. different clowns.

tarot is an opening, a portal to symbology.

anything can be a rorsasch, even how the leaves pattern as they fly by, or settle at your feet.

humdrum mind...gurdjieff stipulated we were all asleep, walking talking zombies, and recommended remaining in that state unless we are capable of following through in creating a different, consensus-of-one philosophy.

there's a saying that a prisoner could get out of any jail if he had the tarot deck.

i alsways suspected he gave a reading to the guard!

as metaphors come, that pleases me.

as for the inner/outer duality...

complemented they are one, with or without witness, for ever and ever amen

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 at 07:06:10 AM EST
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