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New crime: being sort of swarthy while using an iPod | 65 comments (65 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
when will it end (4.00 / 8)
The misassumption most of us make, I believe, is to think that we can turn back the clock to the America we knew in the 90s if we just defeat Bush, and that the balance will then swing and things will return to "normal".

I no longer believe such a scenario is likely.

In fact, I don't think that the ultimate resolution of the "American Crisis" will be either nice or peaceful, and I think it'll happen a lot quicker than most of us think.

(Coincidentally I wrote a diary on Kos on this very topic yesterday.)

When Pinochet took over, the whole democratic system crumbled overnight. One doesn't forget things like that. When force is used, too many people have too much to lose to resist. You flee in exile or you turn a blind eye and hope you aren't next.

The right already think we're scum who should be rounded up and carted away; give them the boots to arrest, say, 500 liberals / enemies of the state, Kos, Gilliard, Molly Ivins, Billmon, Chomsky, etc., and I say that will be the end of the opposition.

The major questions of the day are:

  1. Will the Right relinquish power voluntarily? Obviously, they'll use every by hook or by crook trickery before resorting to force, but there comes a point when they'll be faced with a choice: leave in disgrace & face possible criminal charges, or stay in power by fiat. Which do you think they'll pick?

  2. Will the Military help the Right stay in power? Especially if the alternative is presented to them as a weakened country and/or treason? If they do, it's outright fascism; if they don't and rebel, it's a civil war.

Anything else is trivial, really. Those are the alternatives we face, I fear.

Arguably, we're transitioning from America 4.0 into America 5.0.

by Lupin on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 05:48:56 AM EST
Re: when will it end (4.00 / 3)
When Pinochet took over, the whole democratic system crumbled overnight.
I would say when the democratic system crumbled, Pinochet took over overnight.

The Chilean right wing had been assaulting Allende's government without regard for the stability of the state for quite some time before Pinochet's coup.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 07:27:47 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
See La batalla de Chile: la insurrección de la burguesía (The battle of Chile: the insurrection of the bourgeoisie).

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 07:59:14 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
I agree with you, with a heavy dose of chicken-and-the-egg analogy.

But what I'm trying to convey here is how little time it took for Pinochet to estasblish the mechanics of repression -- legal repression.

One of my teachers in the 70s was a youngish Chilean exile, not particularly radical (by western standards) who basically owed his life to the fact that he had been an open-eyed cynic before the coup, like most of us here, and had left Chile because he had no faith in the legal safeguards.  He was right. Many who thought they were safe died.

Ariel Dorfman (the author of the brilliant DEATH & THE MAIDEN - the film isn't as good as the play, but it's a start) has repeatedly warned Americans. Here is a link to his latest article from the WASHINGTON POST.

But in the end, my point is simple: will the American Crisis end peacefully with a simple transfer of power, or not?

And if not, what role will the Military play?

by Lupin on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 08:00:13 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
On a tangent (as usual) --

Chicken-and-egg = spiral causation

I like the term "spiral causation", because it captures the sense of something circular, yet emphasizes that there can be no genuine circularity in causation. The old question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg", gets its puzzling quality largely from its use of the definite article.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 04:00:14 PM EST
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Re: when will it end (4.00 / 3)
You write in your DKos diary (which you should cross-post here)
I lived (briefly) in Spain in 1971 when Franco was still in power. I later had many friends who fled from Pinochet for their lives. So I have some experience of what I speak of here.
See? That is the problem. Americans by and large have no living memory of government oppression. They can't relate. That always happens to others. It can't happen there. They're upstanding individuals. They pay their taxes.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 07:36:53 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (4.00 / 4)
I told several of my friends: there is a "smell" you recognize. The word "fascism" is too precise; it's brute strength, raw power, hatred, greed, the strong preying on the weak.

It's ugly, atavistic, transcends politics. It doesn't take much to resurface.  Look at East Germany. You still smell it in Spain, parts of Spain, if you're really attuned. They won't tell you, but there's still an awful number of people who LIKE Franco.

by Lupin on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 08:07:41 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
That description just made me shiver.  When I run into it, I have an urge to back up against a solid wall, in a fight-or-flight second.  

It is a very strong sensation, but I have fine-tuned it to differentiate between my own memories of francoism, or current right-wing robotics, in various combinations with ignorance, old rage, sexism, or pure envy.

I do not see the numbers you speak about, in any circles in Spain.  You may get that sense from "Legionarios de Cristo" or gangs of "ultras" using fascist and nazi insignia, but I think the rest is a new form ugliism.

It has been 30 years, so anyone younger barely knows anything and the people that lived the civil war 1936-39 now speak up from either camp, mostly to express sorrow.  People have moved on to consumerism.


Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 06:08:07 PM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
Having spent 6 years abroad I'm a little out of touch, and it seems that the PP is veering towards the far right (demonstrating against peace, gay rights and self-government), and that the sindicato del crimen is once again up to the same shenanigans they tried in 1993-6. Libertad Digital is friggin' scary.

When I was 12, some of my classmates were being socialised into post-francoism. Not pretty already then. A few years later you could see all the pijos my age with theit white or deep blue polo shirts with the Spanish flag around the rim of the neck. I was born the day after Franco died, and I don't think people my age have really moved on. Or maybe I just associated with political nutjobs all my life.

How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 06:19:45 PM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 1)
I´m 55 and grew up in the calmer, rigidity years, but the authoritarianism was from all angles: government, administration, police, church, school and family.

I was thrown out of school for 3 months for setting off an alarm clock in a wastepaper basket.  I thought my life was over.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 06:51:20 PM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 1)
You may enjoy this bulletin
http://tinyurl.com/fomyh

I am working on a new entry on the latest PP nonsense about boric acid, which is turning into a saga.  I get the sense that belonging to the PP has been a status symbol for the new rich, but they are the extreme-right now and hopefully people will catch on slowly.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 07:23:31 PM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
I tried to get people from Escolar.net to come over and summarize the Pezones Negros saga, but they wouldn't do it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 03:00:03 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
I read in my local rag LA DEPECHE that recently when there was a poll in Spain about what to do about the victims of Franco, about 25% or 35% of the respondents expressed a favorable impression about Franco. I don't recall the article, just the general idea I got from reading it. You may know more about the subjects.

My friends tend to hail from Barcelona or the Asturias and they all hate Franco, but in the South, I think if you talk to the older generation, and they trust you, you get a more mixed message.

Have you read Carlos Gimenez' PARACUELLOS series?

by Lupin on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 06:17:26 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
See Spanish Civil War reparations by whataboutbob on August 2nd, 2006.

People from Asturias might remember the fact that Franco ws the general in charge of putting down the labout unrest in the mining regions of Asturias in 1934. A good dry run to get the troops used to turning on their fellow citizens.

Catalans, of course, resent Franco for abolishing the Generalitat and suppressing the Catalan language.

Madrid was laid siege and bombed for almost 3 years, but regrettably the right wing is strong there. What a shame.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 06:32:25 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (4.00 / 3)
There are quite a few of my acquaintances who smell the odor to which Lupin refers. Most of them either had families in the holocaust or were second generation Americans who had a family history of authoritarian governments. Tellingly, about half of them have emigrated and a lot of the others are seriously considering it.
Other people I know think the rest of us are paranoid but when you confront them with things like, "the vice-president shot someone in the head and the victim had to apologise," or, "what about those detention camps they're building outside of town?" they just let their eyes slide off and look in a corner. That expression they get on their face scares me more than any right wing nut ever could.
Would the military ever come into play? There are some crazy commanders, and I personally know a bunch of very crazy enlistees, but I think that the military would be more likely to split and fight among themselves than the general populace would. Just guessing though.
by northsylvania on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 11:10:55 AM EST
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Re: when will it end (none / 0)
Lupin, I read in your dkos Diary that you and your wife left the US - where did you go and how difficult was the process? My wife and I have been thinking a lot about moving there sooner than in the few decades we had originally planned.
by Jett on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 12:24:03 PM EST
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New crime: being sort of swarthy while using an iPod | 65 comments (65 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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