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Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? | 56 comments (56 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
DoDo estimated that for short distances (approximately 1h flights) flying uses 6 or 7 times the power of a high-speed train. Slow transport is more energy efficient than fast transport.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 06:38:17 AM EST
Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
Is there a distance planes are more efficient than trains? (Neglecting oceans, of course)
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 06:40:12 AM EST
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Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
Energy efficient? I doubt it.

DoDo estimated the power of an Airbus 380 (I think) at 65MW, while TGV clocked in at 10MW and ICE at 8MW. The number of passengers is comparable.

So you need the time of travel to be 6 or 7 times shorter to make up the difference. Airliners are not more than 2 or 3 times faster than high-speed trains (depending on whether you consider top or average speed) and the train has at least a couple of hours head start because of airport procedures (check-in and luggage collection at a minimum, not to speak of customs checks and longer check-in times for intercontinental flights).

So I don't think Air can beat rail on energy efficiency by passenger-mile. Even less on freight by tonne-mile.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 06:46:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
DoDo estimated the power of an Airbus 380 (I think) at 65MW, while TGV clocked in at 10MW and ICE at 8MW.

To be exact,

  • I calculated for the A340-600 (the stretch A-340); though the A380's capacity would be comparable to the TGV Duplex;
  • the original TGV Sud-Est units have 6.45 MW (or had -- I din't know the );
  • the more modern TGVs (Atlantique, Réseau, Thalys, Duplex) are 8.8 MW,
  • the new not-yet-in-service TGV POS for the new TGV Est line towards Strasbourg (and Germany) 9.28 MW;
  • if you count it as TGV, the twice-as-long but less wide Eurostars have 12.24 MW;
  • the 8 MW ICE-3 has more, the non-Duplex TGVs less seats than an a standard A340-600, while the (somewhat slower) ICE-2 has just 4.8 MW and a bit less passengers than a TGV.

I note I'm not sure the regular top speed power figures convert into average consumption. I seem to remember a narrower difference between air and high-speed rail.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 4th, 2006 at 08:03:21 AM EST
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Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
At some point the cost of dragging food, beds etc along has to hurt.

Not to mention, most people who have the money will gladly buy their way out of spending days cooped up on a train.

I don't see air transport as such a huge problem.  Give a few ChE's the economic motivation and we'll rearrange the molecules of biodiesel to make acceptable jet fuel.  The only real problem I see off the top is branching the chains enough to have a freeze point at the -40 to -44 required.  

by HiD on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 06:49:27 AM EST
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Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
Technopolitical has pointed out our global energy use is currently 1/6 of the biosphere's primary energy production throught photosynthesis... Biodiesel is going to be a disaster.

Right now, I'll gladly buy my way out of airport hassles and crammed seats, and take leisurely train rides.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 06:54:06 AM EST
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Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
I don't see biodiesel solving the overall balance, but I could see it easily replacing the 7% of US petroleum use that goes to jet fuel.

From London to Paris?  train  hands down.

From LA to NY ??  give me the plane.  especially given how lousy our trains are.

by HiD on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 07:03:13 AM EST
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Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
For business travel? Fly. For leisure travel? My next vacation in Prague or Madrid will be by rail.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 07:19:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fuel efficiency (none / 0)
I remember the A380 being marketed as needing 3l/100km per passenger (80MPG with one person in the car)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 07:27:47 AM EST
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Re: Fuel efficiency (none / 0)
How about the TGV?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 07:36:18 AM EST
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Re: Fuel efficiency (none / 0)
I have seen equivalent fuel consumption figures for the ICE in the 2-3 l/100 km range.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 4th, 2006 at 08:08:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Fuel efficiency (none / 0)
I found the following data.

  • Average for all kinds of express trains in Germany: 2.1 l/100 km
  • express trains up to 160 km/h: 1.6 l/100 km
  • express trains from 160 to 250 km/h: 2.3 l/100 km
  • ICE trains above 250 km/h (includes less efficient ICE-1, ICE-2; average occupancy 48%): 3.2 l/100 km
  • ICE-3 on the latest high-speed line (Ingolstandt-Nürnberg): 2.75 l/100 km

  • Average of local passenger trains in Germany: 4.2 l/100 km
  • regional trains (includes Diesel-powered): 4.6 l/100 km
  • suburban railways: 3.8 l/100 km

  • Average of all urban transport (subway, tram, bus): 2.6 l/100 km
  • buses: 2.7 l/100 km
  • subway and tram: 1.7 l/100 km

Note that they were calculated under the theoretical premise that electricity fed into the catenary comes from petrol-burning power plants. Hence about two thirds of this 'consumption' is theoretical losses in a theoretical power plant, and you also didn't consider that aircraft emissions in the stratosphere have a stronger greenhouse effect than ground-level emissions. Hence, in specific CO2 emissions (e.g. in tons of CO2/passenger-kilometre), planes and cars are the multiple of trains.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 4th, 2006 at 08:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Fuel efficiency (none / 0)
I presume that's an average based on a "typical" flight.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 07:37:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Fuel efficiency (none / 0)
Also with the maximum capacity configuration. But you can go to the wikipedia page on the A380 and have a field day with the specs.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 07:38:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Fuel efficiency (none / 1)
Well, most well run airlines have a seat occupancy of 80% or so, which is quite impressive to manage on a consistent basis.

But then you can start playing around with the number of seats in various classes and so forth. A business calss seat takes something like the space of 2-3 economy class seats but tickets sell for a much "better" multiple than that.

My guesstimate is that a "normal flight" uses 5l/100km (45MPG) per person.

Kerosene needs to be taxed like other fuels, and plane ticket prices should adjust accordingly. On a short haul flight, say 1,000km, a 1 EUR/l tax would add about 50 EUR per ticket (and thus 500 EUR per ticket on a long haul flight) - that would reduce the number of flights but would certainly not kill the industry.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 3rd, 2006 at 08:18:33 AM EST
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Re: Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? (none / 0)
Fuel efficient, I have no clue. I only know that there is an ad-hoc law of the three-hour high-speed train ride: that high-speed rail will dominate the air/rail market under this limit, which roughly corresponds to 600 km at present. But there are some lines for example in France beyond three hours with the TGV dominating.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 4th, 2006 at 08:07:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who will be squeezed by expensive energy? | 56 comments (56 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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