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Hi Barbara.  My tuppence-worth:

I (still) think ET needs some kind of formal grounding...a participatory structure with roots beyond the internet.  I mean, a members structure of some kind (and oh so open, and free at the point of entry etc.)...well, I banged on about that before!

Against that, if ET is an online magazine (a very good one), then forcing it into one box or t'other might hurt that.  Printing presses are often owned by one enlightened individual coz the various areas of the magazine live in different (and sometimes conflicting) worlds.  To give it one direction could be to push it away from others...

(btw I post diaries to a) enjoy myself, b) hope others enjoy reading them and c) storage for ideas/pics/quotes I've picked up and would like to refer to later.  So I'm on the edge of any discussion about moving things forward in a political-activism sense...I don't have the experience or the knowledge.  I can offer enthusiasm and comments I s'pose, but I don't think that's worth a great deal without...well, I'm back to my point at the top.)

And there's always the question of time/energy/commitment.  To really make (a) change(s) will take extra work, will or may be burdensome at times.  And although we have some agreements here, we also have disagreements (e.g. nuclear power.)

And, importantly, certain tasks will go beyond the "I can afford to do this for free; it costs time not money" part of our lives...

For instance.  It's clear to me that anyone investing in solar/wind tech. at present will make money.  Setting up a factory to manufacture components etc.  (or whatever...etc...) would be a wise use of anyone's time and money...run the whole progressive program through every step (hiring/firing/building/materials/advertising/etc.)  But I don't have the money, the knowledge, or any relevant skill set for such a project.  Yet I think ET would be a great place to bring together the kind of people (and money) that could.

So, I thought we could move ahead small-steps-style by re-locating the site in Europe, getting some basic payment and ownership system worked out (ownership=extra sense of belonging with all the other owners?) I was pleased to see that Canard Enchaine makes money and political waves and is owned by the journalists...that's my kind of thinking.

I agree with your questions, and that's enough of me trying to answer 'em.  Let the big brains type!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 12:11:57 PM EST
and good questions...

Not all diaries here are the dissemination of knowledge/opinion, they can also be requests for knowledge. You'll find quite a few headlines have a question mark at the end of them.

Feedback is important, of course. It is only human nature that one's time spent here, whether creating a diary, or on an exchange of comments, is appreciated. The one thing we never really know is how many people actually read without making their presence known. There is nothing wrong with lurking - today's lurker may be tomorrow's diarist ;-)

It can be daunting that ETers are not afraid to disagree - but I have never seen it happen except to regulars.

So get started!

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 01:08:49 PM EST
regulars and trolls of course

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 01:25:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ETers are not afraid to disagree...

The disagreements here are unusual, though, in that one often learns something from them about the topic, rather than (as at many blogs) learning about prevalent reading skills, levels of knowledge, and human nature.
---------------

Which prompts a side comment --

It is perhaps not fully appreciated that the following pattern makes comment threads deceptive as statistical pictures of the blog's readership, or even of the writership. The following facts are painfully obvious:

  • Commenters often say something sensible with which almost every reader would agree.

  • Disagreement prompts responses more often that does agreement.

  • Among readers who disagree, those who respond will tend to be those who disagree strongly.

  • Statements are sometimes unclear, and sometimes misread, creating misunderstandings.

  • A sensible statement can, if misunderstood, suggest that the writer is profoundly ignorant or even ill-intentioned.

  • Responses based on a misunderstanding are particularly likely to be misunderstood, since their premise is false and perhaps unstated.

This natural pattern makes blog readerships seem far more confused and contentious than they are. Comments both over-represent readers who are argumentative and reading-impaired, and over-represent responses from sensible people who are (seemingly for no reason) provoked because they are momentarily confused.

Conclusion: The blogosphere community is much more sensible and agreeable it seems, so there is more hope for the world than we perceive, and everyone should cheer up, at least incrementally.


Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 07:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very insightful!

(We love to be contrarians here on ET)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 02:07:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you!

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 04:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did not see who wrote it until I go to the end, and frankly, it could have been you (was 99% sure I would see the JMK quote below the bullet points).

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:17:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All I can do is throw in another 4.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really appreciate your comment, Barbara. I discovered ET a very short time ago and I really appreciate the positive attitude here but I do ask myself the same questions. So many
brilliant individuals
and
What are we going to do with it?

I'm a newbie so I cannot really comment on this in any comprehensive way but I do wonder if any regulars could let us know what "the whole picture" might be? If any ?

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 03:48:31 PM EST
Is as much up to you as any of us. There is no 'whole picture' - it is a self-organizing process that, like your brain, is still connecting up.

People are not very used to this concept - even though it is something we use every day with our friends and our non-official lives. We've all been 'trained' to wait for someone to tell us what to do. It will never happen in this kind of community.

In all organic cellular systems - like a tree, for instance, each unit adjusts according to how its neighbours adjust. This process of adjusting does produce a very beautiful thing - a tree. But no single cell can say "Let's have a branch growing over that way". The branch emerges out of the process.

So you just have to start adjusting ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We ran most of Piratpartiets campaign in that manner. The way to decide if and how to do something was 'Just do it' and when in doubt do a peer-review, that is do not ask the party leader but ask other people in your area (that you might also easier do the actions with). And it was so hard.

Bear in mind that I am a rather anarchistic person and have learnt and used the tools of non-hierachial structures before. So I was one who got this quite easily (which just meant even more work trying to unlearn the rest).

The impuls to wait for orders is just so ingrained in our backs.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's about finding self and group motivation. And the realization that 'Sjuton! I CAN do it' ;-)

Anger and frustration are still the main motivators for doing something. Our western society is built on the premise that happiness is a large footprint, and once you are in the trap of maintaining that footprint you don't want to rock the boat. It's how Class A drug dealers work.

One of the solutions is to have a small footprint.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:42:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anger and frustration are still the main motivators for doing something.

Every successful open-source project scratches a developer's itch [or something to that effect] — Eric S. Raymond in The Cathedral and the Bazaar

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:50:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Surfing uphill on a wave of optimism today, if I may partly disagree with your Migeru, I am sure afew or Jerome could translate this beautiful quote (Google did appallingly, and I do not feel up to it)

"Seule la verite peut venir a bout de l'injustice.
La verite, ou bien l'amour"
Albert Camus

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:23:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Only truth can overcome injustice.
Truth, or love.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:45:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"There is no truce in love or warfare" ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry it was Sven it did not agree with.
Guess that's a fairly good disagreement hit rate as for today... <s>

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:26:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The original idea was kind of a pan-european political grass-roots organisation, analogous the DailyKos. But we don't have the mass participation for that, nor is our brilliant readership (with the exception of Jérôme himself and Ritter when he was still around) well-connected (brilliance doesn't get you networking). For now, there is participation in EU consultations. However I would like to participate in something bigger, to do something of the caliber of Albina Ruiz's feat.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 04:01:22 PM EST
But is validation from others ultimately the only reason why we contribute? Or do we write and share our opinions, wisdom, expertise and whatever skills we have in a hope that it might do someone, somewhere, somehow, some good?

Personally, my main motivation (well of course besides validation) to diary something is to 'spread the word'. Silly hope that advocacy might have more effect if a few others are convinced, or to get some understanding. From Lebanon diaries to train diaries. (Even my autumn blogging was kind of a tourist commercial...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 04:08:36 PM EST
tourist commercial

?????????

Looked to me like you were talking about humanity and the beauty of the earth.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 04:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To be found on Sitno mountain (Hungarian: Szitnya), reached through Štiavnické Bane (Hungarian: Hegybánya, German: Siegelsberg), near the city of Banská Štiavnica (Hungarian: Selmecbánya, German: Schemnitz) :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 05:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey! I've been there! I was about 9. Had a great time... :)

"If you cannot say what you have to say in twenty minutes, you should go away and write a book about it." Lord Brabazon
by Barbara on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cool! So you know what we were talking about, here is the (longer) Booman Tribune version of my Autumn Blogging in that area.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 08:18:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... to which there are no easy answers.

The goal for me is to become an influential voice in public debate (I was going to write policy debate, then political debate, but it's both and more). Scoop (the software for sites like dKos and ET) makes it within grasp of unknown writers on the internet, but the critical mass is still elusive.  The trick is to get the combination of the brilliance of individual voices (more than one) and the readership of a mass publication. Getting readers to write and be read - and to let writers know what they think is something new and still not fully explored. There is an element of direct democracy, with all the associated risks of populism and cliques.

I'm glad that you see standards maintained here. We also have not to lose our soul in the process.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 04:35:53 PM EST
Thanks for the clarification, Jerome. I think that as a debate club, ET is definitely on the ball. I do try to promote ET to all people that I meet that I believe could be somehow beneficial to this site whenever I get the opportunity.

There is, of course, the question whether what makes ET so good is the fact that it's a still a fairly small group compared to other blogs. If it becomes too populist, it might lose some of its "homey" quality. I think that quite a few people on this blog, through a meaningful and often daily interaction, have formed a sort of a relationship, which is what makes ET appealing as well, I believe -- to be known and recognized. And people got on very well face-to-face, as we could see in Paris. My idea was to draw on this closeness rather than recruiting masses of new readers, and bring one of the many ideas that float around here into life by working together. I do realize that that  might require more commitment than many might be prepared to make, because, as Miguel correctly pointed out yesterday, we all have a life and need to make money and feed our families etc. There is also the geographical distance (how many Londoners are here, actually?), which could become a problem if the work we would do moved away from the Internet.

Anyway. I haven't read all the comments yet, so I'm going to see what people are saying :).

 

"If you cannot say what you have to say in twenty minutes, you should go away and write a book about it." Lord Brabazon

by Barbara on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:50:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ego: always..
Status: Looking for it.No way I/we can avoid it.
Questions: always
Learning: a lot
Networking outside, connections outside: null (except for the two cases mentioned above)
Internal future projects: Not sure that the effort put into it will lead to anywhere since we lack connections.

Probably we would need four times more readers to start networking and working in small projects where the load of work will not be very high, the quality good and then the possibility of succes not taht relevant (spending one afternoon and getting no evident results is OK, spending all the month weekends and not getting anything.. well... I think nobody would do it).

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 04:45:29 PM EST
People like Jerome, or Sven or Chris Cook, seem to have some connections. Ritter definitely had a bunch.

I think we just need to be patient and people with connections will end up finding ET. Also, if we continue writing letters to politicians, we should make it explicit that, apart from being "a forum for civic debate" it is open to them to post things here, too. Maybe that way we could have some sort of informal conversations with people with connections.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 05:08:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think anyone, possibly not even Kos, would have expected dKos to have the influence it has now based on what it looked like a year after it started.

ET lacks a party base, so there's no way to hook up the work here to an existing machine - which is a big handicap.

Such a thing could be possible, but it requires some conscious networking efforts.

I don't mind so much if that's not quite happening yet. But if we're all still in exactly the same place a couple of years from now, that would be a good reason to start being pushier about external contacts.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 05:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't be very happy to hook up with any existing party - I follow the Groucho dictum about not wanting to be a member of anything that would have me - except maybe the Pirates.

On the other hand, if Jerome wants to stand for anything in the EU - he has the beginnings of a network. I'd vote for him. Party, anyone?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:54:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are some obstacles.
Colman: What power do we have? by Colman on August 3rd, 2005

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:57:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't going to give him any money for SOS sake!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 08:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have connections (or if I do, I don't realise I have them, or if I do, I don't use them), but connections happen to me.

Does that makes sense?

I'm hoping the same for ET.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But you're an X-arque! </snark>

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just X, and then I spoiled that by doing a PhD on a useless topic that was not published.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:29:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
then I spoiled that by doing a PhD on a useless topic that was not published.

That makes two of us.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, an ex-X-arque.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
X-arque doesn't exist. X, or Enarque (or both).
Scandal and discredit has only really befallen the enarques.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipédia: Exarque
L'exarchat est une organisation de certains territoires périphériques de l'empire byzantin, mise en place au VIe siècle pour faire face à la menace d'envahisseurs. L'exarchat est dirigé par un «exarque» qui concentre les pouvoirs civils et militaires.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's worse than that for me. I might know them: but do they know me?

Ain't easy coming up against the system....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are we all a bunch of dropouts here?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't change the system from inside.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And on top of that they sentence you to 20 years of boredom.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I prefer to label my sitz-im-leben an "Alternative Lifestyle."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 07:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm just lazy.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 12:42:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]


The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 01:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have connections

What I mean as your connections are your highly educated friends from Paris and your prominence on large blogs like dKos, Booman Tribune and The Oil Drum.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's what I meant by connections "happen to me". My visibility on dKos was quite unexpected (say I modestly and returning to (arrogant) form, mumbling, "it's not the success on dKos that surprises me, it's the fact that ET has not become wildly successful yet, grumble")

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:19:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
in the ways that you imagine. Like Chris, I am mostly on the outside of the system.

Because of past projects, I can get in a lot of doors because people still remember who I am. But, once inside, I have to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to persuade people to even slightly change their ways. It is exhausting and I often find myself compromised.

For instance, I deal quite a lot with brand issues and yet I believe that branding (as it is understood today) is dead. What I try to persuade companies to do is to look at who they really are and who they want to be (and why they want to be) and then try to alter outside perceptions to fit the 'real' personality of the company. However fiction keeps intruding because companies are so scared - they want to be someone they can never be. My compromise is in having to deal with this - and coping with such things as mission statements and vision statements that are just self-serving crap that consume huge amounts of corporate time and then are put in a drawer and forgotten.

I feel genuinely embrrassed to take their money. The guilt is only softened by the fact that I can then buy time to work on the things that I believe in.

I have come to the conclusion that bottom-up is the only way things are going to change. Or perhaps middle-up/middle down. So I focus these days on trying to convert people whose minds are not yet closed by power, but still have enough knowledge to understand the system they work in. It's slow.

In a couple of weeks I will face 30 very heavy institutional investors. I am going to try to explain SOS to them in 30 minutes. Daunting. I'm going to attempt it by humour and a lot of visuals. All there is to hope for is to plant a seed of doubt, supported by the use of a name they might recognize - Charles Handy has been rated among the Thinkers 50, the most influential living management thinkers. He co-founded the London Business School.

This is what he has said:

"It is a paradox that in our democratic societies it is only the corporations that are resolutely undemocratic.  This will become more blatant as the front-line workers find their voice - a voice that organizations will ignore at their peril...

In this new world people want to be regarded as belonging to something, not just used by it, as members not employees, citizens not human resources.  They want a voice in what concerns them, the chance and the right to make a difference".

It will be a drop in the ocean, of course. But even if just one of these people wants a chat afterwards, it will have been worthwhile.

OK this has been my usual I,I,I, rap. But the point I wanted to make is that humour and visuals are powerful tools for sneaking in mind-benders. The most difficult part of the communication process is the last 5 centimeters. And another aphorism "It's not what you want to say, but what people are ready to hear"

These are all things that should be remembered here at ET. Being right is not enough. Having all the facts is not enough. And we should think more about Changing The Game, than playing it.


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 04:01:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suspected you would say this. I knew Jerome did not take the well-traveled politically-connected road out of X, and that Chris Cook fell out with the financial industry.

Let's start talking seriously about changing the game then. Like Barbara said, the strongest vibe that ET gives out is that of underutilised talent. That's probably in many ways a misperception but still...

And we should think more about Changing The Game, than playing it.

I want to understand the meta-game so I can change the game.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:09:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the meta-game is how do you relate to your fellow humans, and beyond?  The Capitalist Game is "Say what you want; feel free...as long as you relate via money-based intermediaries...it's cool."  

The Simpsons are on Fox, is what I mean.

But we are separated geographically.  So the meta-game for us is linguistic in the first instance, hence the "magazine" appearance of ET: writing words in such a way that they have effects in the world...word magic.  I think building up a discourse around sustainability...what does it mean, what do we all HAVE to do if we are activists towards a sustainable Europe?  (That's where I see the focus.)

So changing the game is changing the use and focus of language.  We all post for different reasons, but if there is a focus on...well...I'd say a focus on getting away from the moneyman intermediary.  Not that abstract exchange value (etc.. Chris/Jerome, I bow etc...)..ya know, money is sometimes useful and often necessary.  But if my power if free, my food grows around me, my house is well insulated against excess heat/cold...and I have access to the latest information...the latest wisdom...

Not sure I'm helping here, but I think as Sven says, the game starts with our own intentions, desires...our own ability to step outside of our various boxes, take a look around...

(Sven can explain how us not having a homunculus affects this ;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:26:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The Individual..

On Radio 4 this morning, the 8:10 topic was Nuclear Fusion.  The conversation was between an expert from (I think) California and (in the "reactionary" postion) a guy from Friends of the Earth.  The conversation went something like this.

Nuclear Guy: The technology isn't there yet, but we're working towards it.

Friend of the Earth Guy: The timescales are too long; we need to invest in renewables now.

Nuclear Guy: I agree.  We have our funding (From the U.S., Europe, Russia, India, and China) to build and run an experimental fusion reactor.  I also think we should invest in renewables now.

The individual...you have to start somewhere--with yourself?  But individuals live in groups...they aren't found in isolation.  That mix of group and individual...the stones on the Go board...the particle/wave strangeness...I think they're all connected.  I think there is a way to map our knowledge of the intimacies of nature ("outside"?) to the human situation ("inside"?)  I cannae do it because I know too little about the "outside" part...but I think mapping across, using the knowledge to greatest effect...

When man is born, he is tender and weak;
   At death, he is hard and stiff.
When the things and plants are alive, they are soft
   and supple;
When they are dead, they are brittle and dry.
   Therefore hardness and stiffness are the companions of death,
   And softness and gentleness are the companions of life.

Therefore when an army is headstrong, it will lose in a battle.
When a tree is hard, it will be cut down.
   The big and strong belong underneath.
   The gentle and weak belong at the top.

I don't think this is mumbo nonsense, I think it is another attempt to...to eff the ineffable, as melo put it.  Yet if this is indeed how nature works, then we can update 2000+ year old attempts at talking to the human condition with our latest knowledge...

For me, these are all means, if used correctly, to closing the gap between self and other, between individual and community...but I'm too dim to make the connections (as my Go playing demonstrates!)

And I may have wandered off topic (moi? ;) so ignore, move on, I just wanted to say something along these lines to try and clarify my thinking somewhat--I thank ET for the space to do so!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:43:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To a certain extent - for me any way - ET is a refuge where I have learned a great deal as well as being able to tune up my own thinking in the company of tolerance, as well as transdisciplinary expertise. But I'd certainly like it to be much more than a refuge.

We've hit a small wall with the SOS project. The key guy on funding issues just took a job as communications director at one of the largest consulting groups in Finland, and I guess it will be a year before he has much spare time. He will take the hundreds of hours of discussions on SOS and changing the game that we've had, into that new job, and I trust that he will do what he can with it. But I am useless with the official funding application requirements of legalistic BS. They make my blood boil.

So I am thinking now of opening up the SOS discussion here. I'll talk it over with the Man from Lyons tomorrow. The university and business school connections remain solid - maybe I have to persuade them to come here to ET. Give me a little more time.

The students at Kaos Pilot business are the most interesting bunch I've met - and in the end it is they who will change the game (and indeed it was they who invented the slogan). The change is something that will happen with the next generation - the ones who will grow into organizations taking a natural facility with the networking technology that, to me, is driving the phase transition we have entered.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:48:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and after you have given your presentation, would it be possible to present it here as a diary? If not, do I get a private sneak peek?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps hard to do as a diary since there are many elements to a presentation - including the live speaking - that function together. eg I have arranged for fake waiters at the event to take part in the experience. I can't reveal how yet.

But I could try to distill at least the audio-visual part into a diary.

Oh how I wish it were possible to just drag and drop animation into ET. I know the servers get loaded - but come on, a giga is less than 60 cents these days.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At the heart to this is a Schizophrenia in the nature of the Corporation itself.

It's Smeagol vs Gollum (just saw the Lord of the Rings cycle on Channel 4 these last 3 weeks - bloody brilliant)

On the one hand is Smeagol -the raison d'etre of the enterprise itself. eg Boeing  came into existence to build good aircraft that airlines wanted.

Then there is Gollum, the Shareholders, driven by the Ring of Power.

The former is what the stakeholders identify with, but the shareholders (driven by the imperative of the Ring = Deficit-based Money) enforce - through their Nine Riders (the Directors) - a drive for short-term profit at the expense of all else.

The problem lies in the nature of the Corporation itself.

It is only if we can set up Corporations without a Rentier Monkey on the shoulder that the Brand dichotomy can be transcended. Businesses like John Lewis (owned by the Staff) achieve this, as can Coops, but businesses owned by "absentee landlord" shareholders are always going to be in trouble.

As you know, I believe that the "Open" Corporate (of which the LLP is the first example) enables us to achieve the participative outcome you describe.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:40:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And that is why your ideas are so goddam interesting! I now get the basic insight you offer - but still parts of it seem esoteric to me. Just as discussions of banking or energy markets seem esoteric to me. But then if I started to talk about channel modulation, or the differences between captive and non-captive audiences, or subliminality or any other communications theories (which seem obvious to me) then you would regard these as esoteric too.

Which leads me to the question: do we all need to understand everything? Can we rely instead upon a community back-up? Can we be united? This is why I like Migu's idea of an ET membership that can perhaps do more than discuss.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru, could you, our anyone else using the term, elaborate on this idea of "connections"?

I know what connections are, but I am curious as to what people mean on ET when they say, "we don't have connections" or as you just said maybe people "with connections" will join ET.

I am coming from the perspective that if connections are needed, and one doesn't have connections, then one needs to go and make connections.

So I am wondering what people on ET percieve that these people "with connections" will offer ET?

Second, where is Ritter these days? I haven't seen him in a long, long time.

by aden on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 09:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See Migeru's link to his farewell message (in which he called ET spectators of politics).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 09:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks DoDo. I missed that post. -One ETer's response to Barbara's questions.
by aden on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 10:07:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Being a full-time paid operative of a political party it's too easy to say what he said.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 10:08:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have power? Do you know anyone who has power? At the level when you can make things happen because you know people who can make things happen? Then you have connections.

As for going out and making connection, I should write a diary about how cliquish the English are.

The need to have "connections", and "you are who you know", and mutual back-scratching, were so contrary to my parents' (especially my father's) ethos that I can't say I have any either. And if I have them, I don't know about it, or if I knew I wouldn't want to use them.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 10:06:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was also silent for long time with diaries simply because English is not my native language and I cannot master it as Reinald Tolkien. I wish I could.
My mother tongue is not Russian as many think here, though I was educated in Russian and even wrote some books. I am learning other languages (Tibetan, Hindi, Mandarin), more books are in the line, participation here in full is very time-consuming (especially with pictures and links). I do really appreciate work of all bloggers who selflessly contribute to this wonderful site and I hope when I have a bit more time I could emulate them.  
by FarEasterner on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 06:11:07 PM EST
cohesion is a big theme for me right now, along with coherence....last month it was identity.....

here there is a growing (motley) identity forming, there is a staggering amount of coherence, and yet very little cohesion.

a collection of spirited horses, difficult to harness as a team.

is some ways it was more interesting when there was more counterpoint, as when wchurchill posted.

but since we are mostly in agreement here now, there is more chance of being able to pull in the same direction, once we decide what to pull for...

so far it's been like a very above-average party, where you go home shaking your head at the improbability of meeting so many nice, funny, clued-in folks in one room.

while most blogs i find boring, ET shimmies along, serving as much-needed intellectual stimulation. i love the contrasts between wonky wonders and goofball yooma.

can we drop-ins ever become 'movers and shakers'?

prolly not, but we can let off steam wagging our digi-digits at those presuming to be....

satire acts as a brake to fanaticism, which has far too big a bootprint on all our lives.

fanaticism is prelude to fascism, and we all should and do worry about that.

what to do?

well, till we find a cause for yurp as worthy as kos has in restoring a nation, we can come and soothe our impatience, keeping each other as savvy as we can by speaking out and sharing our feelings, validating each others' perceptions, debunking propaganda (this would justify ET by itself), and reminding each other that loneliness is often geographical, and with this amazing technology we can disseminate opinions, sharing info (and even emotions) at lightning speed.

i see ET as a still-new machine, revving up in the hangar, getting ready to....matter a bit more?

or is that too much to hope for?

i think when we are ready to fly, the destination will emerge, and like you, i wonder if our virtual kaffeklatsching will bear fruit, or just the pretty blossoms of repartee that help the hard truths we face each day a little easier to swallow.

mux meta4s means time to end comment...

best meta ET diary yet, thanks barbara

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 08:02:30 PM EST
I have not seen any insults so far...

This is easily remedied:

"You have the intelligence of a bucket of rocks."
"A mud pack is good for the complexion. I suggest you leave it on."
"Thou weedy motley-minded baggage!"
"You are so stupid, If you had a brain you'd take it out and play with it. "
"You have as little honesty as honour."
"Are you always an idiot, or just when I'm around?"
"Don't let your mind wander - it's too small to be let out on its own."
"If you were orphaned when you were a child, I feel sorry for you, but not for your parents."
"You lisp and wear strange suits."

This is a full-service blog.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Mon Nov 20th, 2006 at 08:06:00 PM EST
It's both easy and hard to answer your questions, Barbara. Easy to say we probably share a similar view of a tired and fucked-up world (yes, the world always was, but there are ups and downs and we're on a down that might be terminal) and a desire to speak with a new, energetic, and authoritative voice that might help humans live more generous, linked lives on a breathing planet. That, to develop a voice, we've discussed using, and use to a greater or lesser extent, tools that (are not mutually exclusive and) include

  • this Scoop site, its community exchanges (virtual and real), its writings and comments, its debates, its capacity to attract new participants;

  • monitoring the activities of the European Union and attempting to have some (small) influence on them -- this has at best led to a couple of contributions to EU Consultations;

  • pushing out sketchy pseudopodia that correspond to a wish to watch, monitor, critique, formulate policy, communicate to the media, in other words develop a think-tank personality;

  • since Ritter has been mentioned, another possibility is "networking", using connections to find receptive ears in the corridors of power;

  • an overarching project at least some of us have discussed is the creation of a new narrative for society and the economy, to replace the one anti-progressive, aggressive capitalism has used to turn the world to its profit over the last thirty years.

The hard thing is to say what we can actually do with the time at our disposal. Try doing all these things at once? I don't think it's possible. Some of them are beyond us at the moment -- the think-tank, for example, or the connections (though Mig might be right that the connections will come). None of us can be full time on ET, many of us are stretching the time we can give. We need more people, particularly Europeans (non-Europeans please don't take umbrage, this place is open to the world but its focus is European). We can invite family, friends, acquaintances, contacts to tune in here, but above all we can collectively contribute to make the place intelligent, attractive, alive -- and accessible to those for whom English is not their first language. For the moment, I think that's quite a lot of work for apprentice train-stoppers.

Sorry if this sounds discouraging.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 03:41:48 AM EST
We can invite family, friends, acquaintances, contacts to tune in here, but above all we can collectively contribute to make the place intelligent, attractive, alive -- and accessible to those for whom English is not their first language.

I have invited a great many people and I think exactly one of them created an account and hasn't used it much).

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:20:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I invited Alex.

No acquitance in real life is someone whom I think ET would be for. On the other hand, I thought to invite another internet acquitance, a Spanish guy I befriended on the USENET, but his old identity disappeared since from USENET and his old website is off, and I can't Google him because apparently he shares the name of a writer...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:19:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I woudl hope you're not referring to me :)!!!

"If you cannot say what you have to say in twenty minutes, you should go away and write a book about it." Lord Brabazon
by Barbara on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 08:21:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I was going to say that you came in as an ET widow, but didn't want to distract from the main point...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 08:26:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
since Ritter has been mentioned, another possibility is "networking", using connections to find receptive ears in the corridors of power

I note I used "networking" in a much wider sense. What that Peruvian woman Barbara met did must have involved 'networking' at a very local level, i.e. getting together neighbours and waste disposal companies and maybe some bureaucrats to establish a system that Changed the World. For varied reasons, I think this basic level of networking is missing for almost all of us ET regulars.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am uprooted, as maybe most people here are.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:12:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ET Tumbleweeds.....?

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There seems to be an interesting mix here.  Uprooted and replanted successfully; rooted but restless; uprooted and flung on the far winds...and some rooted and happy in their original communities...(?  Not quite sure who that would be...but I'm sure we have contributors who fit that description...I could be wrong...)

(Me, I'm happily uprooted from where I spent my formative years, but now live (after a roundabout wavy line strange shape path) only 26 miles down the road, so I have a lot of place recognition through time around me--which I enjoy and think is useful--nd contacts going back and out and across in strange temporal/physical directions.  An ET eg, melo and eternalcityblues are in Italy (where I lived in the early 90s)--but neither grew up there (correct me if I'm wrong) and so I have (potential) connections there...whereas I've never been to the U.S., unlike a lot of contributors who have either lived there, visited for often extended periods, or are residents or citizens...a strange mix we have!  Vive la polyphony!  (Hat tip to rememberinggiap.)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think of ET as a european magazine with a political agenda. And I think this is a way of affecting political change in the EU.

One of the main problems of the politics on EU-level is the lack of accountability. Just look at the reporting from a minister-meeting. Every minister returns home and proclaims loudly to the pres what they salvaged from their greedy opponents and what they alas had to conceed. I have the feeling that if you compare all those statements you will find reforms that no one claims credit for and yet they passed and you will find stuff that everybody claims they loved that failed. I feel that way because no one checks them, there is no european public. And if you do not believe me, ask yourself which party groups advanced and which went back in the last EU-parliament elections? You probably do not know (except if you read it in an outdated comment of mine here at ET), but I guess that you do know which parties in your country that gained and which lost seats?

So I see ET as a way of building a european public sphere. And I think that is very important for changing Europe. If we can channel this into specific actions, all the better.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:29:43 AM EST
I think the relatively small size of ET is an indication of the very embryonic state of the European Public Sphere.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:38:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. But that just makes it all the more important.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:45:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This does make things difficult, but also quite exciting. As public participation at the EU level is weak and non-existent it is on the one hand difficult to see where one might direct effort, but on the other hand, perhaps there are untried approaches that could be discovered or created. A bit of an open field, one might say.
I read ET in part because I want to "know something" about European politics. Not, just EU politics, and my own national politics, but politics for all of Europe. A lot is done at the national level, and at the local level, and for me a lot of value from ET comes in getting a taste of how "it" is done all across this wonderful union.
I am quite looking forward to the French elections next year. I have some French colleges, I am already harassing them for information and opinions. One thing I have learned so far, they all hate Sarko with some passion, thank god. (And one (non-French, Sarko-hating) college almost had a violent confrontation over him with a (French, Sarko-loving) neighbour.) Should be an exciting spectacle. I do love the spectator sport aspect of politics...
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 08:21:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do love the spectator sport aspect of politics...

That (being spectators of politics) is one criticism that has been leveled at ET...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 09:41:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And yet I love it. And in it I find some understanding for sports fans. Watching the numbers come in after an election is for me quite thrilling. Participation and spectation are not mutually exclusive, though the latter is easier to come by than the former.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 09:52:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 09:52:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great link, thanks.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 09:55:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh my!  What a read!  I remember reading that first time round, but like many diaries it was just as enjoyable the second time, and enlightening in different ways.  Barbara!  Read it and weep!

Well, all I can say is, of all the muppets, here's who I'm closest to.

Unlike most of the central Muppets characters, Gonzo is not meant to represent a human being or an anthropomorphized animal, but sports a bizarre, non-human appearance, which includes blue fur, bug-eyes, and a long, literally hook-like nose, thought to be inspired by the acorn weevil. On The Muppet Show he performed as a performance artist, stuntman and daredevil under the name "The Great Gonzo" (or "Gonzo the Great"). He takes pride in his iconoclasm, all the while romantically pursuing Camilla the chicken. In his original performance, he often complained about the people who did not appreciate his "art".

Famous quotes by The Great Gonzo.

"I shall now eat a rubber tire to the music of The Flight of the Bumblebee...music, maestro!"

"I shall now defuse this highly explosive bomb while simultaneously, and at the same time, reciting from the works of Percy Bysshe Shelley."

and finally (and apparently this is his motto):

"Anything worth doing is worth doing without a parachute!"

But hold on!  Music.  Incomprehensible mutterings and grumblings....  Strange suddenly crazed eyes.  Makesa no sense.  Of course!  I'm no suave gonzo...I'm too dim...too ughy pug ooh groo grunt...No, say it ain't so boss...But then, on t'other hand, the passion, the, well, the animal intensity.  Yes!  

(Or maybe I'm Beaker, no, ah yes, heh heh, I think he would be Sam the Eagle, and he's definitely Sgt. Floyd Pepper, heh heh, and she's Lips, and she's certainly Miss Piggy....Hiiiii YA!
 <etc.... mumble mutter mumble mutter...> ;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 10:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like Gonzo. The only thing is... does he have connections?

"If you cannot say what you have to say in twenty minutes, you should go away and write a book about it." Lord Brabazon
by Barbara on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 11:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is this any good?

And if you'd like some dancing tips...

And, hey!  How about King Prawn.  Does he count?

(they say he knows a spanish maths/physics guy...but I can't comment any further.)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 12:18:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are a funny chap, RG. :)

Johnny Depp is definitely a good connection... :)! (He can teach us to talk like a pirate -- for details, ask Migeru.)

"If you cannot say what you have to say in twenty minutes, you should go away and write a book about it." Lord Brabazon

by Barbara on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 08:15:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. So is truth, as I say... to start with a snark.

Let me share something personal with you. When I first joined ET (November last year) I was at a crossroads, lost, and looking for the warmth of the tribe. That warmth I did find, and appreciation, and recognition, and much newer to me, humility.
When I left, it was because what I sensed over there was too much of ego massage, perhaps not enough of my own, for that matter. I do not qualify to answer your so right to to the point questions as my own story with ET is too much of a love and hatred one.

Among the many things I owe ET is discovery that the tip jar is actually a great invention.
Nothing is more dangerous than an idea, when you only have this single one (after Paul Claudel, rusty translation being my trade mark). Ego massage is dangerous only if that's all what it's about. ET is so much beyond that. And ego massage is good in a world otherwise made of doom day augurs.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 04:49:01 PM EST
I spare you the usual outsider's look and perspicacity blah blah. I am no longer a regular. Used to be. Used to be quite proud of it actually. Not dreaming, I am confessing all my sins, but the repentance is for tonight only so take advantage. :)
Used to have (and may still have) all the overinflated ego symptoms. But never would I have said that people who just ... what's the blogosphere word for it again ? Let's say "poke in" are less entitled to raise issues and ask questions and question the system. There is no one to claim more relevancy. No one to fear less.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:01:02 PM EST
It is good to see you back, even if it is temporary.

So before the clock strikes midnight, is there any other sins you like to confess?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 05:17:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
too late for that now... well it depends on the location perspective (I know, poor attempt at global humour). Better have remorse than regrets, huh ?
Let's say I hope to be back for longer than my confession would have taken anyway.
And thank you for the welcome back.


When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tervetuloa takaisin, muru.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 06:23:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, okay, you know I trust you Sven but ... can you swear on whatever you wish that your thoughts and intentions are as pure as the sound of your beautiful language ? ;-)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:02:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well, a literal translation would be 'welcome back, crumb (of cake or biscuit) - but that doesn't quite capture the colloquial sense of endearment ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 02:59:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For instance, the British comedy series title "Auf Weidesehn, Pet" - pet was translated as muru.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 03:01:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Endearment is too scarce these days not to be taken for what it is and heartily thanked for. Good to see that in our ever-changing world, the best things (and people) remain unaltered.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 at 11:11:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sound an anwfully long sentence actually to mean simply welcome back...

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Nov 21st, 2006 at 07:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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