How many nations in Europe? | 280 comments (280 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: How many nations in Europe? (4.00 / 2)

There hasn't been a single case of breakup of an EU member state, and the treaties have no provisions about it. So we don't know what standing an independent Scotland or Euskadi would have in the EU.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:10:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What about Greenland? (none / 0)

IIRC, Greenland was granted home rule from Denmark in 1979 and in 1985 left the union. So during those years they stayed as members, though Greenland was not (and is still not) totally independant so it may not apply here.

Then we have Algeria, Les territories du Sud, that broke out of France to form their own state. They did not stay in the EEC.

(For our american friends: To clarify, Algeria was not a colony at the time, but a part of France. Like Texas is a part of the US.)

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by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sigh (none / 0)

for our American friends

* polite cough *

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (none / 0)

cough

I wasn't aware of that little legal detail either...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (4.00 / 2)

Oh, I was aware of it, although I'll freely acknowledge that most Americans probably wouldn't be. But what puzzled me a little was the implication that only Americans would be unaware of it.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (none / 0)

I think Migeru meant the same. I too only know it since I read ET.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (4.00 / 2)

Just for the record, what I tried to do was introduce a obscure fact in a comic way.

The comedy in question would be to assume that everyone in Europe would know this, when due to the obscurity of the fact that would obviously not be the case.

Probably wrong thread to do it though. The apologise worked better.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (none / 1)

Somehow it seems ironic that I actually knew this before I came to ET.

I'm not typical of most Americans though. This sort of thing interests me.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 07:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (4.00 / 3)

I apologise.

Of course most americans (irish or other kind) are skilled in the structure of the French colonial empire and would therefore not need that extra information. But I thought someone might need it. And now I am refereing to no one in particular, not the regular poster someone. Who probably (being born in Skåne and all) could tell all the different kinds of legal structures that the French colonial empire entailed. Which does not mean that I think higher of the schools in Skåne then any other place in the world. Or...

I think I will stop digging now.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:50:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (4.00 / 4)

:-D

Thanks, I needed a smile tonight....

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming, in which I'm offended at everything.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (4.00 / 3)

You are very welcome.

Tone is hard to convey in plain text.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:05:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (4.00 / 3)

A good summary of what we learnt in this diary...

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (none / 0)

LOL

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:51:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (4.00 / 2)

You want us to get rid of Texas.

But really that's not fair to the Mexicans.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (none / 0)

Can you step over to the Open Thread and explain what's going on in Mexico?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:24:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (4.00 / 2)

Yes.

That is it.

Finally someone (not the poster!) understands.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (none / 1)

The situation with the Special member state territories is complex indeed.

The case of Algeria leads me to believe that if, say, Scotland left the UK, it would cease to be part of the EU unless a separate treaty were negotiated.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:41:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (4.00 / 2)

However, Gary J points out that there wouldn't necessarily be animosity between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK, while if the Basque Country attained independence with the PP in power, they would use their veto at the European Council to block the necessary treaty to allow the new state to keep EU membership. Then again, a PP government wouldn't allow a peaceful breakup of Spain in the first place.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 01:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Treaty of states (none / 0)

So independant Scotland needs to negotiate for entrance.

I think so to. The treaties are after all between states. So far the EU consists territorially only of the member states territories, it does not hold any own territory. So if a new state wants entrance it does not matter (legally) if its territory has been part of the EU previously.

Of course, this makes it really interesting if you have break down of a state without any clear successor state.

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by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 02:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (none / 1)

What about the 5 East German Lander and their ascession in 1990 without a special treaty?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (none / 0)

That is different: they became part of the Federal Republic of Germany, which was already a member state. If there wasn't a treaty explicitly mentioning the German Länder no change to the treaties was needed. A treaty would have been needed to make an exception for them.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 03:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (4.00 / 2)

It is the same case as Algeria but reversed, a country can add or loose territory without changes in treaties.

Which would mean that if a Basque state became independent it would be out of the EU but if it then entered, say, Sweden, they would be back in the EU as loyal subjects of the Swedish monarch. Nothing prevents them from having extensive home rule though.

Actually that is also a way to enter the union without pesky negotiations and vetoes. Turkey (or Canada, Vietnam or any other state) can just join an existing memberstate.

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by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 05:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (4.00 / 4)

Don't say it loud: one of our so moral fiscal paradise (monaco, channel Island, Gibraltar, Liechtenstein,Luxembourg...) may try the idea some days...
and sell the membership in an auction.
What would be the legal possibilities for the other members to impede it, by the way?

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 11:17:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (none / 0)

It is actually only Luxembourg that is a member state of those you mention. But lets say that the territory now known as Turkey joins Luxembourg (with extensive home rule for Greater Luxembourgs eastern provinces).

Legal possibilities for the other members to impede it? Lousy.

Political possibilities for the other members to impede it? Huge.

If Luxembourg did this on their own every single decision on EU-level that is not subject to veto would go against Luxembourg and there would very likely be some illegal though very real border patrols making sure the inhabitants of Greater Luxembourgs eastern provinces did not use their newly won privileges as citizens of an EU state. And so on.

It could very possibly spell the beginning of the end of the EU.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 05:01:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (none / 0)

If Luxembourg did this on their own every single decision on EU-level that is not subject to veto would go against Luxembourg

Could you give some examples of types of decisions these might be? (In light of Jerome's latest story, I am very interested in finding out how the EU enforces its policies/decisions on member states.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 03:32:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (none / 1)

Any decision by the EU Council only requiring a (qualified) majority.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 06:02:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (4.00 / 2)

I was intentionally a bit vague as EUs decision making process is very convoluted. But a lot of power rests with the council of ministers where the states are represented. Decisions there are made according to different rules (and I do not know the criterias for the different rules).

Perhaps what I rather should have written is that Luxembourgs credibility among the EU states would be zero if they in this way blatantly broke the spirit (if not the letter) of the rules. As some decision are subject to veto, negotiations are long and tricky. If you blow your credibility you will not get any tracktion on advancing your questions.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 07:58:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (none / 1)

I wonder whether the rest of the council could vote to have their voting rights suspended. There are provisions in the treaties for this, the question is whether the "breach" qualifies as a trigger for those provisions.

European Commission: Consolidated version of the Tresty on European Union

Article 6

The Union is founded on the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the rule of law, principles which are common to the Member States.

The Union shall respect fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms signed in Rome on 4 November 1950 and as they result from the constitutional traditions common to the Member States, as general principles of Community law.

The Union shall respect the national identities of its Member States.

The Union shall provide itself with the means necessary to attain its objectives and carry through its policies.

Article 7
1. On a reasoned proposal by one third of the Member States, by the European Parliament or by the Commission, the Council, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members after obtaining the assent of the European Parliament, may determine that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of principles mentioned in Article 6(1), and address appropriate recommendations to that State. Before making such a determination, the Council shall hear the Member State in question and, acting in accordance with the same procedure, may call on independent persons to submit within a reasonable time limit a report on the situation in the Member State in question.
The Council shall regularly verify that the grounds on which such a determination was made continue to apply.

The Council, meeting in the composition of the Heads of State or Government and acting by unanimity on a proposal by one third of the Member States or by the Commission and after obtaining the assent of the European Parliament, may determine the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of principles mentioned in Article 6(1), after inviting the government of the Member State in question to submit its observations.

Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of this Treaty to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of the representative of the government of that Member State in the Council. In doing so, the Council shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.

The obligations of the Member State in question under this Treaty shall in any case continue to be binding on that State.

The Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide subsequently to vary or revoke measures taken under paragraph 3 in response to changes in the situation which led to their being imposed.

For the purposes of this Article, the Council shall act without taking into account the vote of the representative of the government of the Member State in question. Abstentions by members present in person or represented shall not prevent the adoption of decisions referred to in paragraph 2. A qualified majority shall be defined as the same proportion of the weighted votes of the members of the Council concerned as laid down in Article 205(2) of the Treaty establishing the European Community.

This paragraph shall also apply in the event of voting rights being suspended pursuant to paragraph 3.
6. For the purposes of paragraphs 1 and 2, the European Parliament shall act by a two-thirds majority of the votes cast, representing a majority of its Members.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 08:46:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (none / 1)

It is hard to see that there is a breach of paragraph 6, but it might very well be used anyway. Maybe with some reference to the Kurdish situation in eastern Greater Luxembourg...

I did not know that there existed such provisions, quite interesting.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 08:57:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about Greenland? (4.00 / 3)

Article 7 was used on Austria when Jörg Haider joined the government.

Poland has been threatened with it after a slew of homophobic remarks from government officials.

The Guardian: Polish leader's anti-gay stance threatens EU voting rights (October 25, 2005)

Poland could lose its EU voting rights if its newly elected president continues to oppose gay rights and seeks to introduce the death penalty, the European Commission warned yesterday.
In a shot across the bows of arch-conservative Lech Kaczynski, the commission declared that all member states must abide by EU rules which protect minorities and block the death penalty.
Failure to comply could trigger a special process under the Treaty of Nice which deprives errant member states of their voting rights in ministerial meetings. "We are going to follow the situation very attentively," the principal commission spokesman, Jonathan Todd, said yesterday.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 09:02:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How many nations in Europe? | 280 comments (280 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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