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We need new attitudes and behaviors, not new lightbulbs and reactors.

Indeed, and in part because we will need to deal with a lot more new technology than just lightbulbs and reactors, whether we need it or not.

Also, with regard to the technology of community in a literal sense, the dKos-style software medium is about as primitive as a Usenet discussion group, in comparison to what is possible. If someone would point me to a good community-blog-based discussion of next-generation community-blog-like things, I'd be grateful.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Sun Dec 24th, 2006 at 03:39:57 PM EST
Take a look at the forum software this site uses and see if is more like what you have in mind.

http://thomhartmann.org/groupee/forums

It has a few problems such as the inability to preview one's comments and the use of non-standard markup instead of HTML, but the use of forums with long lasting threads solves the rolling off to oblivion problem of FIFO blog software.

(The site is interesting in itself. It is run by a progressive US radio host and attracts a mix of liberals and libertarians who agree on nothing.)

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Dec 25th, 2006 at 11:23:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See this comparison of internet forum software.

I personally fail to see how "forums" are better than the Scoop platform.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 25th, 2006 at 12:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Avoiding the rolling off to oblivion problem is a big win, but overall (alas!), it doesn't have much of what I want.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Tue Dec 26th, 2006 at 01:59:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Forums also have the "rolling off to oblivion" problem, there's only so many threads they can display on one page.

On Scoop, you can display up to 50 diaries in the "recent diaries" box, and you can also display any number of diaries in the "diaries" page (click on the link on the upper margin). You can track diaries of your choice through your own personal hotlist.

I can't wait for Colman to take over the site server-side so we can actually use all the Scoop features that we currently don't, and maybe add some more.

What's your wishlist, can you enumerate it here?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 26th, 2006 at 08:57:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Partial wishlist --

Trivial extensions to Scoopish systems that either don't exist or do and should be far more visible (or defaults):

  1. An option to display one's own comments in order of most recent reply, rather than of most recent posting. As it is, to notice new replies to more-or-less recent comments, one must remember how many replies each comment had when you last viewed it. This is just nuts. Note that this would allow discussions on old diaries to continue almost as well as on new ones, greatly lessening the rolling-off-to-oblivion problem.

  2. An option to view diaries in order of most recent  comment, rather than of most recent posting. See above remark on rolling-off-to-oblivion: this would make renewed conversations visible to others.

  3. A mechanism for sending within-blog, screen-name-based email to other participants. This would allow channels for communication of messages that shouldn't be on public threads, whether because they would be distracting, or embarrassing to the recipient, or contain private information.

  4. Multiple categories for new and recommended diaries, so that (for example) philosophy, political strategy, news, and humour aren't competing for the same space.

  5. Etc.

More deeply different models of community, not necessarily improvements or replacements for what we have here. The objective is to make a system that gets better when more people participate (like Wikipedia) rather than degrading. Some characteristics (not as close to specifications as the above):

  1. Ratings don't define the relationship of the ratee to a community with given boundaries; they define the relationship of the ratee to the rater. Ratings help determine how visible the ratees postings are to the rater.

  2. Rating a participant highly makes that person's ratings combine with one's own, with some weight. That is, you tend to see what others that you approve of want to see.

  3. If party A has a pattern of ratings like that of party B, the effect is much like that of giving a high rating to party B. Amazon may have a better approach to achieving the desired effect here.

The intended net effect of the above mechanisms is to make communities more self-organising and less hard-edged. Negative ratings make someone tend to disappear from one's attention, but don't eject them from a group in any hard-edged way. These ratings would be private, and would have the voting-with-your feet property of changing your (virtual) location and interactions.

I have various related ideas, but these should give a sense of what I have in mind. Much of it is beyond the scope of Scoop-like systems.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Dec 27th, 2006 at 12:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you taken a look at the list of Scoop features that ET currently has disabled?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 25th, 2006 at 11:59:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. There are some interesting features I hadn't known about, but nothing radical enough.

Slogan: I'd like a medium that is as good at presenting controversy as Wikipedia is at presenting consensus.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Tue Dec 26th, 2006 at 02:01:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What features do you think are needed for that?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 26th, 2006 at 08:57:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After seeing the astounding success of Wikipedia, which I would have predicted wouldn't work, I'm not at all sure what is needed. Here are some characteristics of what I imagine, though --

  1. A natural way for controversial topics to be found: this is easy, controversies usually have one or more well-known names. It is may be important to allow different names without privileging any one of them, but showing clearly that they're regarded as addressing the same topic.

  2. A natural way for advocacy groups to coalesce and sort themselves out. Some mutual-rating system along the lines that I sketch in my other reply might provide a good basis for this, given some additional mechanism on top. A metaphor for this is the Google PageRank algorithm, in which pages "recommend" one another, and recommended pages have higher weight in giving recommendations. Some of the other features of the Google algorithms may also be relevant.

  3. A Wikipedia-style mechanism for advocacy groups to present their side of an issue.

  4. An interface that forces disputes into structures that enable side-by-side comparisons. The degenerate form of this would place each side's extensive presentation of facts and arguments, point by point, opposite the other side's equivalent of repetitions of "neener, neener, neener!". The point-counterpoint structure would typically be far more informative than this.

In light of the miracle of Wikipedia, it may be that (1) and (2) are superfluous, or could be quite rudimentary.

An effective system of this sort would probably have a social value on the order of a trillion dollars or a billion lives, but good luck getting anyone with social concerns to consider whether this is true, or to treat progress in this direction as a high priority. Instead, we see vast intellectual effort addressing the effects of specific instances of unresolved or wrongly resolved controversies, or into refining and elaborating complaints about said effects.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Dec 27th, 2006 at 12:36:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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