Top Diaries

Hang on, I think I'm taking offense...

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 05:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary (none / 1)

If you've travelled abroad, and watch TV less than 10 hours a week then you are excused ;-)

Izzy - it's all sweeping statements, don't take it personally

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 05:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um, I take the fifth on both counts... I mean, I have travelled abroad, if by abroad you mean technically, y'know, leaving the country, although since 99% of said travel consisted of having tea with various relatives... and my tv viewing, well... okay, fine. I'm guilty dammit. I'm swept up like so much dust into the rubbish bin of... oh, forget it. ;-)

Seriously, though, I'm sorry to say I'm offended and then disappear. I wasn't in a sulk, I swear -- our server was down.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 09:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary (4.00 / 2)

Gah, now I feel guilty for rating Sven a 4...

In my defense, his description of the way the US treats the "alliance" issue, (other countries as a resource) put me into a deja vu about a big political argument over Iraq I had with an ex-gf from the US.

No excuse, I know... but the flashbacks! It's worse than 'Nam I tells ya!

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 05:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No feeling guilty! I'm feeling guilty for being somewhat flippant and then disappearing (explanation above).

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 09:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I believe it's actually about 20 percent.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 06:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Passport percentage (none / 0)

The percentage of US citizens with passports seems to be considerably larger than 5%. This estimate gives about 20%, and reports an estimate from the Economist of 34% (among those age 18 and older). A US State Department official speaks of 62 million Americans with passports.

Zogby reported that voters with passports favored Kerry over Bush by 58% to 35% in 2004. It has been suggested that a large portion of the travelling Bush supporters are in the military.

(I'm feeling researchy and informative today.)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 08:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passport percentage (none / 1)

One minor effect of 9/11 is that the abolition of the arrangements where US citizens could travel to a number of countries in the US's immediate back yard. I believe the new rules are yet to come into force for the two land borders so that the drunken trips to Mexico for Spring Break can carry on for the time being.

I would agree though with Sven about cultral diversity being more appreciated if you travel. I have qualms whether if, as I am afraid rather too many do, you merely go to a hotel or "resort" run by an international group you actually get to see any. If the only nationals you get to speak to are the receptionist, waiter and maid you certainly do not get to appreciate the culture.

Far more important than seeing cultural diversity is to appreceiate the common experience of humanity. Without it we too easily dismiss the death of a child in Africa as of little concern as "they are used to it" or concur with the idea that those who do not share our traditions are "other" and sub-human.

by Londonbear on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 09:19:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passport percentage (none / 0)

Diid not make it clear that the previous arrangements were passport-free. The new rules mean more will have to get them so the traditional 5% figure will rise.

by Londonbear on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 09:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Another is that the concept of dignity seems to not be understood.

BINGO.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Feb 1st, 2006 at 11:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Funny, this is the exact part of the statement I was somewhat taking exception to. The fact is that a lot of humans don't act very dignified most of the time, but that's not to say they don't understand or respect it.

Not to give Sven or you a hard time, but saying a culture doesn't understand the concept of dignity is a classic form of the ol' us v. them rhetoric. I've heard it too often applied to the poor, to women, and to minorities to let it slide by as a generalization.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 12:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've heard it too often applied to the poor, to women, and to minorities to let it slide by as a generalization.

Really? I was actually thinking about mainstream culture. I suppose it is true that we make it difficult for women and minorities to realize their self-worth. But I think they, of all people, understand the concept of dignity simply because they spend more time dealing with the implications of being refused it.

It is the people who watch reality tv that I fear are completely ignorant of the value of dignity. People don't dig through trashcans for food or work flipping burgers because they have no dignity. They do it because they have to. But no one has to watch American idol, much less, try out for it! That's where having no dignity comes in.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 11:32:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary (none / 1)

I wasn't talking about self-worth. I was saying that the tactic of saying one culture or group doesn't understand the concept of dignity is a not uncommon practice that's always meaningless and often offensive. It doesn't matter if you're making the accusation against the mainstream or not. As to the bit about the poor, I'll quote Cesar Chavez:

"Do not romanticize the poor...We are all people, human beings subject to the same temptations and faults as all others."

And it's just silly to generalize about the "mainstream" population based on whether they watch American Idol which, like Survivor is a re-make of a British show. Does that make the British people incapable of understanding the concept of dignity?

There's plenty wrong with our culture. There's also plenty wrong with people in general. But there's nothing "exceptional" wrong with American people, although it would be nice to think so given the terrible things some of them are doing right now.

I keep reading people being upset about American exceptionalism, but it seems to me they're helping perpetuate the notion if they say Americans are exceptionally anything -- good or bad. Why don't we just admit that people are all the same instead of bashing each other, and then maybe we can figure out how to deal with these truly bad things that go on when the leaders are bad.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 02:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Americans will not allow (none / 0)

other nations their own dignity or their own being. It has not always been as bad as now, but this has always been the tendancy.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 02:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I kinda, sorta agree and disagree. First, nations don't have dignity, people do. Now, if you want to say that the current powers that be are showing a callous disregard for the dignity of other peoples, I'd completely agree. And not to lessen that in any way, but it's not an "exceptional" trait of America. I believe it's very common in situations where the leaders are abusing power.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 02:28:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Americans will not allow other nations their own dignity or their own being.

Now I find that offensive, and I'm not easily offended.

If you are referring to the American government, please say so.

If you truly mean to say that "Americans," every single one of us, is guilty of this, then I guess I won't be inviting you over for coffee.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 03:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You shouldn't be offended. By all means, say the same thing for my country and my people and I would take it like a big boy. Truth hurts but I ain't hiding from it.

Americans (and not just the govt) are not free of guilt. They've shown repeatedly that it takes but a small effort for them to accept other people as "enemies". It takes less, for them to offer opinions on bombing other countries.

75% were on Bush's side when he marked Iraq as a target. 57% (according to recent polls) are in favor of bombing, even nuking Iran. Imagine... what % will be for it when the real propaganda kicks in.

These are numbers that show it's not political divisions or different points of view that motivate them to take such belligerent attitudes against other people. Its a cultural thing. It has to change. It must.

by Euroliberal on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 10:29:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, there we go. That well just never runs dry.

Another brilliant contribution to the advancement of civil dialogue.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 11:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What was offensive with my contribution? Did you understand anything I wrote?

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 06:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, insulting my intelligence is an excellent way to proceed. Please continue. Would you like to call me ugly, too?

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 08:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You get insulted very easily. Too bad. It wasn't my intention to insult or offend you neither in my first nor in my second comment.
If that's how it sounded, I apologise.

Shouldn't it be me that feeling offended by your response? After all, you said that my comment was drying some well... and was not civil.

If you are honest, point out ONE reference in my original comment that lacked civility. One instance that I used anything but facts.

Did you disagree? Make your case.
You disagreed with two consecutive posts without offering any counterarguments. At least explain what in particular offends you. We may come to agree or disagree which is what dialogue is supposed to do.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 10:11:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, get over yourself. (none / 0)

Well, you inserted yourself into the discussion by implying that I personally am immature ("take it like a big boy") because I took exception to being told that I personally (as a member of the group "Americans") "will not allow other nations their dignity."

After calling me a child, you then proceeded to repeat the original poster's error of over-generalizing. Your words were:

Americans (and not just the govt) are not free of guilt. They've shown repeatedly that it takes but a small effort for them to accept other people as "enemies".

Please note that you did not say "some Americans" or even "most Americans." You said "Americans."

In your third post, you asked if I failed to understand what you wrote. No, in fact, it appears to be you who failed to understand what you wrote.

In short: I was objecting to the original poster's choice of words, not to the sentiment that she was expressing. You jumped in with a new set of insults. I then objected to your choice of words, not to the sentiment you were expressing.

You, however, seem awfully eager to believe that I have some problem with people criticizing my country, which would conveniently confirm all of your pre-conceived notions about me.

I can assure you, however, that if that were true, I would not live where I live.

I really suggest at this point that you should move on. There is nothing to be seen here.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:07:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Intellectually dishonest (none / 0)

your last sentence says it all.

You finally posted a coherent (but factually wrong) response but you feel like my side, my arguments do not deserve the same consideration as yours.

I think you just broke a lot of forum etiquete rules and demonstrated that you have little respect for differing opinions.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

For the last time (none / 0)

I have said nothing, not one word, about the opinions expressed by either you or by Gaianne. I have objected to the fact that you both insist on over-generalizing. I do not expect that kind of intellectual laziness in this forum.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:37:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

but.... but you never asked me to qualify, clarify or otherwise explain my positions.

The only thing you did was ad hominem attacks based on some assumption that you chose to make.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He said, she said... whatever. (none / 0)

OK, fine, be my guest. Pull up a chair, have a cup of tea, and qualify, clarify or otherwise explain to your heart's content.

Feel better now?

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No (none / 0)

thank you anyway.

I wish you the best. Peace.

by Euroliberal on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 01:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW, stormy, the irony of this spat of yours is that Gaianne, who set this off, is American herself.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

:) Hehe. I do realize that.... But Americans don't get a free pass when it comes to making generalizations, even about ourselves. It doesn't matter if we're from Michigan, Madrid or Mars!

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think she meant to make a generalisation (because I don't think she includes herself in that characterisation of behaviour), just used generalising language, which can be misunderstood all too easily.

BTW, I once got a letter published in Newsweek in which I blasted them for generalising language. (And the crooks re-edited some words central to my points.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 05:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think the media should be taken to task for it a lot more often. But then, I guess on the list of things we have to complain about regarding the media, that may not even be in the top five...

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 06:04:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Americans will not allow (none / 1)

75% still doesn't make 100%. For the same of the other 25%, who may be 99% or more of the Americans posting here, please awoid generalising language.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Feb 2nd, 2006 at 11:14:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]