Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
does not prevent me from recognizing the reality of the national experience.

Agreed here. But I contend that while there are national feelings and self-identifications, national football teams, national cuisines and so on, still there are no nations. (This will be matter for my last diary in the apatriot mini-series.)

hat do you exactly mean by apatriot, DoDo?

Not adhering to a nation. I didn't make it up, I saw it used by others.

Western Europe's national identities started to form in the 15th century and were fully formed by the end of the 17th century.

Belgian, German, Norwegian? Breton, gascogne, Sicilian, maybe even English?

Methinks you confuse the retroactive historical mythologisation of nationalisms with the real one, the sense of nation wasn't fully developed until conversion into democracies/republics.

The authoritarian monarchy and the nation developed in parallel and it is hard to argue that one clearly caused the other.

I wrote "Absolutist (and not just absolutist)" just because I wanted to extend the argument above your narrower terminology - back to feudalism. And I didn't say the former caused the latter - to say my argument differently, the latter replaced the former as raison d'être of community within a state.

The failure of Spain to annex Portugal and the way that England's annexation of Ireland ended up not lasting have to do with the fact that both annexations happened in the 17th century.

Ireland was controlled and de-facto annexed by England for much longer, and there is Scotland too, which had more independence than Ireland but ended up as part of Britain. Prussia did manage to integrate almost all German lands in the 19th century (with the exception of Austria, Liechtenstein, Luxemburg, the German parts of Switzerland and Belgium, and The Netherlands). France managed to swallow Lotharingia and Alsace, though those annexations also happened in the 17th century. Austria lost the Czech Republic, though it was under changing Germanic control for almost a millennium, and Habsburg rule for four centuries.

There is a lot of history of forgotten people.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 14th, 2006 at 08:02:26 AM EST
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