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Nomad,

Attainable enrichment levels are not related with the size of the centrifuges but with how many of them are cascaded. A chain to produce 4% U235 uranium can produce 98% HEU by recirculation. It "just" takes longer (much longer). Ideally, you want more centrifuges, a bigger cascade to maintain acceptable processing times.

The centrifuges are one of the warning signals coming from Iran. The official explanation is that Iran desires to control its own fuel cycle. But this is a huge investment for a very dubious return. Iran's uranium resources are very modest - nowhere near what they need to cover a large scale deployment of nuclear power plants - so they will have to go abroad to buy natural uranium to put in their enrichment cascades. They may as well buy large quantities of reactor-grade lightly enriched uranium to protect themselves from any foreseeable embargo and concentrate on things like fuel conditioning and post-processing.

So, it just doesn't make any sense except if they want to control the level of enrichment, not targeting lightly enriched uranium for light-water reactors, but ultra-high enriched uranium for nukes.


In my opinion, the real give-away is what's going on in Arak. Iran is building a 40 MW heavy water reactor outside the IAEA control.

A slow-burn heavy water reactor has no interest for energy production and doesn't help Iran to design reactors for energy production. There is only one civilian reactor technology using heavy water - the CANDU reactors - and the very point of that type of reactors is that it can use natural uranium as fuel. So, for civilian purposes, it's either heavy water or enrichment but not both. In addition, CANDU-like reactors are technically pretty complex and this is not what a third-world country would start with for an indigenous design. Iran has nothing to learn from a slow-burn reactor which is not already widely available in open literature.

Slow-burn reactors have only 2 uses:
  • As a neutron source for various usages: radionuclide production, material tests, etc.
  • High purity Pu239 production


Iran claimed that the Arak reactor is for medical radioisotope production. The issue is that Iran already has a zero-power research reactor in Esfahan under IAEA control but is not using it actively, so their claim about the Arak reactor doesn't hold. Let's be very broadminded and assume that Iran has legitimate uses for plutonium, such as MOX fuel for light water reactors and get more bang for their fuel buck. That same type of light water reactor, like the 1000W reactor in Bushser, is a good source of plutonium suitable for MOX cycle and, on top, actually produces useful energy. No need for a slow-burn reactor.

But plutonium produced (and used as MOX) by those light water reactors with a normal fuel cycle is not just Pu239 but a mixture of Pu239, Pu240 with bits of Pu241. Those isotopes are produced when Pu239 absorbs more neutrons. Pu240 and Pu241 are horribly radioactive, including spontaneous neutron decay. So, while it still possible to use reactor-grade plutonium to build nukes, those nukes are very dangerous and have serious issues:
  • Explosive yield is very hard to predict and the risk of a complete or partial dude is high.
  • Those weapons are very dangerous to store and manipulate because of radioactive decay heat and radiation exposure to personnel.
  • There is a non-negligible risk of auto-ignition, which would certainly not generate the full yield but still make a fine mess of your cherished nuclear weapon storage facility.

That's where slow-burn reactors kick in. They run on natural uranium (no need for enrichment) and it's the only way to produce high purity Pu239, which is easy to extract from the reactor fuel by chemical process (easy as compared to U235 enrichment).

The enrichment capacity and the heavy water reactor are consistent with a diversified, dual-track uranium/plutonium military nuclear program, similar to the North Korean program, and nothing else.

With the highly-enriched uranium track, the issue is the uranium enrichment, slow and expensive, but the weapon assembly can be very simple, safe and very reliable. The weapon can as simple as a gun assembly, similar to the Little Boy bomb dropped on Hiroshima. There is no need to test those weapons. They work. Period.

For the plutonium track, producing the Pu239 nuke fuel is fairly easy and only involves slow-burn reactors running on natural uranium and a bit of weird heavy metal chemistry for separating the plutonium from the uranium fuel rods. The issue lies with the weapon itself, which must be a implosion assembly, a very complex design. Incidentally, it is that type of weapon the US tested at Trinity before dropping one, Fat Man, on Nagasaki. They weren't sure at all it would work, while the Hiroshima bomb wasn't tested beforehand as the Manhattan folks knew it would work.

Iran is full of shit when it proclaims that its nuclear program is all nice and peacefull. It's plain false (or the Iranians have really no clue what they are putting their money into). Their program is for military use.

Those who proclaim that the sky is falling are also full of shit. Iran is nowhere near having a bomb. At least 10 years away, or, assuming that it throws at it every bit of money and resources it has (and starve its population to death), makes no attempt to hide the program from the rest of the planet and get every technical detail right on first try, a strict minimum of 5 years.
by Francois in Paris on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 01:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iran is full of shit when it proclaims that its nuclear program is all nice and peacefull. It's plain false (or the Iranians have really no clue what they are putting their money into). Their program is for military use.

Those who proclaim that the sky is falling are also full of shit. Iran is nowhere near having a bomb. At least 10 years away, or, assuming that it throws at it every bit of money and resources it has (and starve its population to death), makes no attempt to hide the program from the rest of the planet and get every technical detail right on first try, a strict minimum of 5 years.

This seems well said, and many agree with this point of view.  I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to take it on.  But,,,,,,one's intelligence is never perfect, and gaining consensus on an opinion will be difficult--so you'll have to have some probability range around this.  Like for example, they can accomplish this under cover in 5 years--maybe people would take that as a worst case option.  I think Colman is looking for a problem statement like that, so we can move on to "now what do we do?"
by wchurchill on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 02:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The 5/10 years estimate deserves an explanation.

The 10 years seems to be the general consensus that floats around most experts and intelligence agencies, assuming Iran maintains its program on a steady clip and doesn't hit major technology snags. From what I understand, it's based on what is known of the current state of Iran's nuclear program, reasonable assumptions on resources and know-how, and comparisons with other military nuclear programs in the past. Iranians seem to be serious, competent and well-organized and there is no reason to believe they won't get there if they are decided to get there. But it's going to take time and they are not there yet.

The 5 years lower bound is not really an estimate but more of a standard cover-your-ass disclaimer, based on the 3 years it took to the Manhattan project from its founding to building weapons:
- On one hand, most of the science and technology that the Manhattan project had to invent is now in the public domain.
- On the other hand, the amount of resources and talents the US threw in this effort was absolutely staggering, mind-blowing, earth-shattering (throw in any superlative you want, it deserves it). There's nothing in human history that compares to that, save, may be the race to the Moon.

A third-world country has a strong head start on the Oppenheimer team and doesn't need to reinvent the science behind the bomb. But it cannot replicate the resources. So counting the amount of time to build the nuclear piles, the facilities to reprocess the fuel and extract plutonium, do the research for the weapons, and get the whole thing running, it all comes to about 5 years.
by Francois in Paris on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 10:50:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The latest US NIE seems to put it at 10 years, not 5 (nor 5-10), due to the problems Nomad mentioned. (Not that I believe there is proof that a nuke is the end goal, just sayin'.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 11:55:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why it's important to stress what the 5 years figure really is : a CYA absolute worst case, not a realistic assessment. I was being negligent there.
by Francois in Paris on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 12:55:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Francois,

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the exact process, and was pretty much hoping my post wouldn't get too much flak, as I would've to bail... Your post is extremely useful and very much appreciated.

The plutonium track & slow-burn reactor was completely new to me; most of what I have informed myself about was on the uranium enrichment controversy.

So, it just doesn't make any sense except if they want to control the level of enrichment, not targeting lightly enriched uranium for light-water reactors, but ultra-high enriched uranium for nukes.

That's similar to my own conclusion pretty much based on what I knew... The plutonium angle adds a whole other dimension. Now it's no wonder at all why the IAEA is at high alert.

The other bit, which I didn't want to put here since I know even less about it, was that the Iranian yellowcake of U3O8 is not pure grade enough caused by contamination of Be(?)-oxydes, which has a similar atomic weight as 235-U. But this falls into the categorie debunking the warmongers...

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 05:13:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But isn't that possible to separate by chemical means?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 05:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I understand it, it is, but it's extremely hard and you need a different apparatus for it - which practically everyone suspects Iran does not have yet. This was one of the main reasons why the 5 to 10 years figure floats up every time.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 05:26:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The centrifuges are one of the warning signals coming from Iran. The official explanation is that Iran desires to control its own fuel cycle.

To give a criticism from another angle than afew, this has been the publicly stated policy of Iran since at least 1992. You may argue that it is not economic, but such an argument doesn't convince me given my knowledge of the economic irrationalism of another regime. (Hungary was supposed to become a land of steel, altough neither iron ores nor demand was up to it. Later, a grand programme to build lignite-fired power plants was started, only there wasn't enough lignite and mining it was enormously expensive.)

Iran claimed that the Arak reactor is for medical radioisotope production. The issue is that Iran already has a zero-power research reactor in Esfahan under IAEA control but is not using it actively, so their claim about the Arak reactor doesn't hold.

I don't get your argument. What does the current non-use of research reactors have to do with the use of one from 2014 on? And, as said above, as Iran wants to control the full fuel cycle, would building an own reactor with own technology and own-produced fuel, rather than just use Chinese-supplied technology and fuel, be part of that? Especially as the HWZPR is small and not fitted with hot cells.

This also brings me to the question of timing. Arak would not be ready by 2014 - and the EU-3+USA dismissed an Irani offer to suspend centrifuge enrichment for two years, provocately demanding a 10-year moratorium instead (let everything built rust, yeah that's acceptable), as well as Ahmadineyad's offer to let the enrichment facilities be run as joint facilities with foreign provate companies. Thus neither of your two fears would have had to be an issue now, or anytime when there is IAEA oversight. In my opinion, we are seeing a rush towards war, this time with wider European help (government change in Germany comes handy, and Chirac was always a cynic enough).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 05:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my opinion, we are seeing a rush towards war, this time with wider European help (government change in Germany comes handy, and Chirac was always a cynic enough).

Hear! Hear!

This is to me the most disturbing aspect of the whole situation, the one most reminiscent of the Iraq debacle and the most frustrating part of the debate.

I cannot deny that the prospect of Iran with nuclear weapons does not fill me with joy. However, there seems to be an enormous pressure towards military action at the moment. As with Iraq, there seems to be a lot of people advocating a timescale of action which is much more rushed than the "facts on the ground" seem to justify.

Surely even those who claim great faith in the motives of the US and EU-3 at this time would be wary, given the progress in Iraq so far, of rushing into badly planned action?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 06:16:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially as the HWZPR is small

To quantify this: according to the IAEA, the HWZPR has a mere 10^8 neutrons/cm²/sec flux, the Araz facility was scaled for a 10^13-10^14 neutrons/cm²/sec flux, and the latter is similar to some reactors for similar purposes, including one China built for Algeria - which is on-topic because China was in negotiations in the nineties to export a similar reactor to Iran before the USA intervened.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 04:32:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My issue with Iran is the two-track thing. It's heavy water or enrichment but not both.

Enrichment is legitimate to fuel light-water reactors such as the one in Bushehr. Although, as I mentioned above, it probably doesn't make any economic sense. If Iran wants to secure its fuel supply, it would be much better off by adopting a clear non-proliferation attitude and uses it to justify acquiring a big stockpile of lightly enriched uranium that would protect it from an embargo.

The heavy water reactor in Arak would also make sense if they want to develop a natural uranium track for civilian reactors (google for CANDU). But this is not what they are saying. And no, it doesn't make sense to build a new research reactor when they are not using the one they already have. Developing a sensible and useful research program is not something you pull off your ass like in "Mmmm, lemmesee, what are we going to irradiate today?"

As for Chirac, Bush, Ahmadinejad and assorted psychopaths, I play by Colman's rules of the Gnomemoot. First the facts, discussion of motivations later [thank you, Colman].

Right now, the issue I'm trying to discuss is whether or not Iran is trying to get nuclear weapons. And having looked at the available information, having run reasonable assumptions on said information, having considered the facts in the most dispassionate manner, having thought the expertise of reputable, knowledgeable and unbiased specialists, having maintained a clear-head and reasonable approach in the general assessment of the situation, my answer will be, trying to muster my best imitation of Lewis Black,

Yesssss!!! Yesssss, God damnit!!! Which part of the word "Yesssss!!!" do you fail to understand !?!?!?

[just a sec so I sponge the foaming spit which is dribbling from my mouth]

Yesssss!!! Yesssss!!! Yesssss!!!

Not that I see that as such a big problem, but that will be for another session of the Gnomemoot.
by Francois in Paris on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 12:19:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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