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  1. There is not an iota of technical proof as of current that Iran does have a nuclear armament programme. There were several points of evidence presented as such but subsequently negated.

  2. If, in theory, Iran does want nukes, the motivation is what the PNAC seems to have acknowledged (see Migeru's quotes): deterrence, not threat. Threat makes no sense when you have a few nukes, and delivery systems that will instantly identify you as the sender, but your opponent has hundreds (Israel) or thousands (USA) of nukes for a counterstrike to eradicate your entire country. On the other hand, since both Israel and the USA do openly threaten Iran militarily, and the USA 'encircled' Iran from all sides, deterrence does very much make sense.

  3. Hence, if Iran does want nukes, it is not a security threat in itself, in fact it could be called the opposite (reducing the chance of another disastrous US intervention a la Iraq). What is a threat, IMO, is a slow spread of nukes to ever more states, which on the lkong run does increase the chances of a nuclear war: it could be (a) between two smaller states, (b) it would be easier to blame a strike on another state, (c) the total madness factor could become non-neglible. But the main obstacle to stopping the spread of nukes is the hypocritical love of nukes by existing nuclear powers (including France, hint hint). As long as they don't show any inclination to plan to dismantle their arsenal (which would be their obligation under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, BTW), others will have a motivation to get ones themselves.

  4. What do the Iranian leaders really want? One possibility is that they do want nukes, and they want to get them after they get the Western powers and IAEA into a situation where they give them a legal excuse to boot out the inspectors, maybe taking a US airstrike as a price (or not even price, but possible outside force that will get the population behind them).

  5. Another possibility is that Iran's leadership doesn't think the West is capable of a serious strike in practice, and wants to get as much as possible.

  6. The no-nukes version is, based either on a similar assessment of Western military capacities or blindness, that for the new Iranian leaders, the issue is one of national pride, a push to get every (civilian) technology the West has and not accept any restrictions the West doesn't apply to itself. I don't think this version is the least likely. One thing rarely noticed in the West about thew Iranian Revolution is that it not only brought social medievalism, but a modernist push in comprehensive and high-quality education (no wonder they didn't like the Taliban) and (not just military) technology (there were Iranian students at my university, including women in head scarfs, BTW). Telecom, cars, railroads, ports, oil industry development.

  7. Finally, I cannot disassociate the question of the "Iranian Problem" from those who want to 'solve it', which makes this wchurchill-inspired exercise a bit nonsensical to me. That is: it is a very big and vague what-if to imagine if Europe would be at the ball and not the USA (does that mean the USA disappears from Iraq, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan and the Gulf?), and that doesn't just change the 'solution' but the 'problem' itself, too.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 07:55:45 AM EST
Finally, I cannot disassociate the question of the "Iranian Problem" from those who want to 'solve it', which makes this wchurchill-inspired exercise a bit nonsensical to me. That is: it is a very big and vague what-if to imagine if Europe would be at the ball and not the USA (does that mean the USA disappears from Iraq, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan and the Gulf?), and that doesn't just change the 'solution' but the 'problem' itself, too.

I'm not suggesting you should: it is possible that the real problem is that the US wants to exercise control over Iranian resources rather than anything the Iranians are doing.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 07:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, where is wchurchill?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 08:17:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Elsewhere, I assume. I'm sure he'll be along.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 08:18:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And what do you think? Or are you just going to be umpiring the gnomem00t?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 08:19:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I'm going to throw in lots more. I'm actually sort of busy today, and on my way out for a while. I'll do some this evening and over the weekend.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 08:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fast asleep. If he drinks Napa wine after midnight, strange and terrible things happen ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 08:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
now, now afew.  Play nice.
by wchurchill on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 01:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know, I know, I'm a tattle-tale.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 02:10:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But isn't it a good thing if the US does not try to lead everything?  We Americans have done a pretty good job of proving that all great strategic thinking, and diplomatic efforts, don't reside fully in America.  <snark>  I tend to look on the bright side a lot,,,,,but I haven't given up on the North Korean negotiations, that include regional partners who seemingly would have more at stake than the US.  Nor on Iran, where though the process sometimes seems very slow, seems to be building a consensus, at least in the sense of getting to the UN.  Nor on Palestine, where Hamas is now in control, voted in by their fellow countrymen,,,,,so what will happen now that they have that responsibility.  Admitedly a lot to play out in all three of these, but isn't this the way to go, with in many cases countries that seem far calmer and more patient than the somewhat gunslinging style of America.  

The challenge though is that progress must be seen to happen, however slowly.  My sense of the American electorate is that Iran, in particular, if it were to go through a similar process of the 16, or whatever the number, feckless Iraqi UN resolutions (over say a 5 year period from today), that would bring out a "51% gunslinger attitude" in America.  IMHO, America will learn a lot in Iraq, and has.  But I don't think one of the lessons will be to leave a seemingly raving lunatic alone, if he is perceived as arming.  I could be wrong on that of course,,,,but I don't think so.  51% has made tremendous change in the US--Iraq, stategy in the war on terror, appointments to the Supreme Court, tax policy, etc.  

So I sincerely applaud the leadership of other countries on these issues, which after all, have huge impact on all of us.

by wchurchill on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 02:12:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The no-nukes version is, based either on a similar assessment of Western military capacities or blindness, that for the new Iranian leaders, the issue is one of national pride, a push to get every (civilian) technology the West has and not accept any restrictions the West doesn't apply to itse

It seems quite possible that a leadership that was truly patriotic and understood that the oil is going to run out would consider nuclear power a necessary part of long term strategy.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 08:00:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the issue is one of national pride, a push to get every (civilian) technology the West has and not accept any restrictions the West doesn't apply to itself.

when Pakistan first tested a nuke weapon, as I recall, cheering crowds thronged the streets in major cities, celebrating this step away from colonial inferiority and towards "equality" as a regional or world power.  nationalism and anticolonial sentiment were deeply bound up in public approval for nuclear arms.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Fri Feb 17th, 2006 at 08:24:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
However, I emphasize that in this context, I did not speak about nationalist sentiment to support nuclear arms.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 04:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
1.  There is not an iota of technical proof as of current that Iran does have a nuclear armament programme. There were several points of evidence presented as such but subsequently negated.

That might be, but there are certainly indications pointing towards Iran wanting to conceal parts of their nuclear program and possibly aspiring to widen their program from civilian to military purposes:

Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, told diplomats that his inspectors had recently obtained documents from Tehran showing that the Iranians had been given various instructions on processing uranium hexafluoride gas and casting and enriching uranium. These had been obtained via the black market in nuclear technology headed by the disgraced Pakistani scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan.

Informed diplomats said the blueprint for casting uranium was required in making the core of a nuclear warhead, although that alone was not enough for the manufacture of a weapon.


And
The story dates back to the Clinton administration and February 2000, when one frightened Russian scientist walked Vienna's winter streets. The Russian had good reason to be afraid. He was walking around Vienna with blueprints for a nuclear bomb.

To be precise, he was carrying technical designs for a TBA 480 high-voltage block, otherwise known as a "firing set", for a Russian-designed nuclear weapon. He held in his hands the knowledge needed to create a perfect implosion that could trigger a nuclear chain reaction inside a small spherical core. It was one of the greatest engineering secrets in the world, providing the solution to one of a handful of problems that separated nuclear powers such as the United States and Russia from rogue countries such as Iran that were desperate to join the nuclear club but had so far fallen short.

The Russian, who had defected to the US years earlier, still couldn't believe the orders he had received from CIA headquarters. The CIA had given him the nuclear blueprints and then sent him to Vienna to sell them - or simply give them - to the Iranian representatives to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

Iran has spent nearly 20 years trying to develop nuclear weapons, and in the process has created a strong base of sophisticated scientists knowledgeable enough to spot flaws in nuclear blueprints. Tehran also obtained nuclear blueprints from the network of Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan, and so already had workable blueprints against which to compare the designs obtained from the CIA. Nuclear experts say that they would thus be able to extract valuable information from the blueprints while ignoring the flaws.

"If [the flaw] is bad enough," warned a nuclear weapons expert with the IAEA, "they will find it quite quickly. That would be my fear."

Both quotes above points in the same direction, although I really don't know what to make of the alleged CIA covert operation dubbed "Operation Merlin". If true, a rather hazardous and irresponsible operation in my opinion, but it seemingly points to the fact that the Iranian regime were willing to pay/acquire more knowledge on how to develop nuclear weapons.  The fact that the Mujahedin-e-Khalq disclosed the existence of nuclear sites, a uranium enrichment facility in Natanz and a heavy water facility in Arak, in 2002, unknown to the IAEA, doesn't add to the reliability of the regime, when propagating their peaceful intentions.

If, in theory, Iran does want nukes, the motivation is what the PNAC seems to have acknowledged (see Migeru's quotes): deterrence, not threat. Threat makes no sense when you have a few nukes, and delivery systems that will instantly identify you as the sender, but your opponent has hundreds (Israel) or thousands (USA) of nukes for a counterstrike to eradicate your entire country. On the other hand, since both Israel and the USA do openly threaten Iran militarily, and the USA 'encircled' Iran from all sides, deterrence does very much make sense.

I would say both deterrence and threat.  Deterrence against the US and possibly Israel and posing a possible threat to the neighbouring regimes and even the possibility of extending their influence into Iraq, Lebanon and some of the Gulf States under the nuclear umbrella, which could lead to a possible arms race in the region.  

(.....)But the main obstacle to stopping the spread of nukes is the hypocritical love of nukes by existing nuclear powers (including France, hint hint). As long as they don't show any inclination to plan to dismantle their arsenal (which would be their obligation under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, BTW), others will have a motivation to get ones themselves.

Yes, I do agree that the lack of nuclear disarmament is an obstacle to the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, but according to the first article of the NPT, the first priority seems to be the issue of non-proliferation.  This because if disarmament was the priority then a dozens of new countries would be nuclear powers before we had finished disarming just a few, and the disarmament would have been for nothing.  

Even so, I do find many of your points intriguing and being quite plausible reasons for the seemingly defiant mood of the Iranian regime.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 02:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First evidence:

Informed diplomats said...

Where have I seen that before

More from the second:

The Russian soon found 19 Heinstrasse, a five-storey office and apartment building with a flat, pale green and beige facade in a quiet, slightly down-at-heel neighbourhood in Vienna's north end. Amid the list of Austrian tenants, there was one simple line: "PM/Iran." The Iranians clearly didn't want publicity. An Austrian postman helped him. As the Russian stood by, the postman opened the building door and dropped off the mail. The Russian followed suit; he realised that he could leave his package without actually having to talk to anyone. He slipped through the front door, and hurriedly shoved his envelope through the inner-door slot at the Iranian office.

The Russian fled the mission without being seen. He was deeply relieved that he had made the hand-off without having to come face to face with a real live Iranian.

Gjermund, this is weaker than weak evidence. The rest of the Guardian article is pure speculation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 04:46:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After some digging, I found that the casting argument holds, but it is questionable whether Iran sought it or was it committed nuclear-proliferationist Khan who included them in the 1987 package: no corresponding equipment purchases, or any proof that any Iranian activity (request, further research) was connected to this file.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 05:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 (.....)but it is questionable whether Iran sought it or was it committed nuclear-proliferationist Khan who included them in the 1987 package: no corresponding equipment purchases, or any proof that any Iranian activity (request, further research) was connected to this file.

Well, if you had no ambitions of developing nuclear weapons why not be upfront with this information and hand it over to the IAEA at once and not wait almost a decade before you more or less are forced to admitting having such a document?  

The NPT doesn't only prohibit purchasing equipment for nuclear weapons, but also refrain from what can be seen as seeking the assistance of others in developing such weapons:

Article II

Each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to receive the transfer from any transferor whatsoever of nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices or of control over such weapons or explosive devices directly, or indirectly; not to manufacture or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices; and not to seek or receive any assistance in the manufacture of nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.

 Whether it was intentionally or unintentionally acquired....well....we have to take the Iranians word for them not actively seeking such knowledge.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 07:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Informed diplomats said..., Where have I seen that before

If you are going to measure every foreign policy issue in the Middle East to what happened prior to the Iraq invasion in 2003 and automatically dismiss it as propaganda, well then it wouldn't be much point in dealing with the Middle East at all and much less trying to uphold the NPT in that region.  

The IAEA has found Iran's failure to inform of its nuclear program, its admitting of acquiring blueprints on how to cast Uranium metal into nuclear warheads and the failure to disclose the nuclear facilities at Natanz and Arak, only admitting it when the secret was disclosed by others, so disturbing that they have found it necessary to report it to the UN Security Council.    

Gjermund, this is weaker than weak evidence. The rest of the Guardian article is pure speculation.

I have to agree that it is certainly no conclusive evidence, but all those incidents but together doesn't paint a to rosy picture of the Iranians intent when it comes to the nuclear question, something which even the IAEA seems to agree with, which was not the case prior to the Iraq invasion in 2003.  That is why their motives have to be scrutinized and treated with utmost suspicion.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 06:55:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
uranium enrichment facility in Natanz and a heavy water facility in Arak, in Arak, in 2002, unknown to the IAEA, doesn't add to the reliability of the regime

As I pointed out elsewhere in the thread, the IAEA requires notification six months before coming on-line of such facilities. (The IAEA delegation first visiting the facilities in 2003 did point that out.) The heavy water production facility was supposed to come on-line last year. Also note that the Arak facilities were originally to be sited at Esfahan, and the decision to move them seems to be related to the need of much water that is awailable at Arak.

posing a possible threat to the neighbouring regimes

Since those neighbouring regimes are under the US umbrella, in fact the two largest neighbours are under US occupation and two more plus three near-neighbours across the Persian Gulf have US troops stationed at bases, attacking them with nukes would be responded by the USA.

the first priority seems to be the issue of non-proliferation.

I don't think you can deduce the level of importance or the order in time of fulfilling obligations from the numbering of articles. On the other hand, I submit you do have a point in that the wording of Article VI points not to the immediate future, in fact demands a separate new treaty on disarmament - but that "at an early date".

if disarmament was the priority

Disarmament was the end goal, and my argument is that disarmament of existing states and non-proliferation go hand in hand: dozens of new countries would not have the incentive (or at least have lesser incentive and rhetorical excuses) to turn nuclear if disarmament of the rest would be on-going (or at least they stopped issuing first-strike threats).

Even so, I do find many of your points intriguing and being quite plausible reasons for the seemingly defiant mood of the Iranian regime.

Upon re-reading I often find my own words offensive-sounding, while when I wrote them it was just a terse way of putting my opinion, and when there were points of agreement I haven't acknowledged them. So hereby I also state that I, too, find your points, and also points of others I responded to critically, intriguing and worth for consideration.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 05:25:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since those neighbouring regimes are under the US umbrella, in fact the two largest neighbours are under US occupation and two more plus three near-neighbours across the Persian Gulf have US troops stationed at bases, attacking them with nukes would be responded by the USA.

Well, you seem to have more faith in the US nuclear umbrella guarantee for the Middle East than I have. On the contrary I doubt the US would use their nukes if such a scenario were to happen and if they were to be protected by the US nuclear umbrella it is of little consolation to have that kind of guarantee when been nuked.  The proliferation of nuclear weapons would undoubtedly lead to fear and fear was and still is one of the main components in the outbreak of an arms race.

Disarmament was the end goal, and my argument is that disarmament of existing states and non-proliferation go hand in hand: dozens of new countries would not have the incentive (or at least have lesser incentive and rhetorical excuses) to turn nuclear if disarmament of the rest would be on-going (or at least they stopped issuing first-strike threats).

Yes, I do agree with you when you say:(.....)disarmament of existing states and non-proliferation go hand in hand(.....), still it is a fact that we have been living with nuclear weapons controlled by certain states without them ever being used since 1945, even when the doctrine of first strike was introduced and no European country, except from France and Great Britain, developed nuclear weapons capability during that time even if the threat of war and the level of fear was very real. That is why I find the argument of fear being somewhat circumstantial and possibly being used as a front in covering up other agendas.  

Upon re-reading I often find my own words offensive-sounding, while when I wrote them it was just a terse way of putting my opinion, and when there were points of agreement I haven't acknowledged them. So hereby I also state that I, too, find your points, and also points of others I responded to critically, intriguing and worth for consideration.

Well, I have never found your comments here on ET offensive, on the contrary, I have always read your comments with utmost interest.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 08:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Supplemental point: Natanz and Arak were known before the Mujahedin-e-Khalq public announcement. (The question left open is whether the intel community left the IAEA in the dark.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 12:00:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Supplemental point: Natanz and Arak were known before the Mujahedin-e-Khalq public announcement. (The question left open is whether the intel community left the IAEA in the dark.)

Well, one important question would be how far in advance did the intelligence community know, before this information reached the IAEA?  If the NCRI came to the US intelligence community with this information prior to informing the IAEA then it could be a matter of weeks or months in advance and that would be just speculation.  More realistically the US intell. community picked this bit of information up from Intellsats.  Still, the failure to inform the IAEA lays not on the US intell.community, but solely on the Iranians.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2006 at 07:43:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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