Muslim Cartoon Controversy: What the Media Isn't Telling You | 78 comments (78 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

No, in my opinion you can draw a caricature of a Muslim without being a racist just as you are allowed to critizie Israeli policy without being called an anti-semite.

There are degrees to which such caricatures are bordering and sometimes crossing the racist line, yes, but such caricatures in general can not and should not automatically be called racist. The one to decide this, on the individual level, is each and every person. On the collective, or societal, level this is up to the courts to decide within the respective countries.

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by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 1)

Of course, it is me the one that consideres three of these cartoons racist. I am happy to defend my position to anybody.

And my clear point is that the judicial/press/media system is completely biased against muslims. A racist cartoon about danes in an European newspapers inciting violence will be quickly dismissed as racist and probably forbidden (if it is ever published which I doubt). Not if it is about muslims.

I indeed think that you can criticize Israel and Sharon with strong cartoon without being racist.. but you can also do it being racist. The cartoons I see here in the Middle East are a lot of them racists agains jews.. and I think these cartoon were racist. If they are not racist for you... well you have another definition of what is racism than what I have.

Having said that, what has a court to decide.. do we not have the free speech to declare anything.. even when it is racist?

I am saying that a lot of people get ventilations when the right to state racist comments is curtailed...when it is about muslims they do not get any ventilation when the racist comments are about jews and catholics.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can I just say... (4.00 / 2)

that although many commenters on these threads seem to believe that everyone needs to be able to accept being ridiculed and satired... there is a difference between being made fun of and being vilified. A bomb in Muhammed's turban is vilification.

When members of the majority who have access to the dominant mass media use that access and their dominant position in society to vilify and demonize a weaker minority... well, that can lead to bad things.

I learned that when I went to Rwanda.

To stem the inevitable outrage over that statement, I want to make it clear right now that I am not saying that I think Danes are going to start slaughtering their Muslim neighbors. I am only saying that hate speech starts somewhere.

Some kinds of speech, especially when someone stronger mocks someone weaker -- what, you can't take it? you just don't have a sense of humor... -- strike me as more like bullying than humor.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

And my clear point is that the judicial/press/media system is completely biased against Muslims. A racist cartoon about Danes in a European newspapers inciting violence will be quickly dismissed as racist and probably forbidden (if it is ever published which I doubt). Not if it is about Muslims.

Well, then you really got a problem if you distrust the system that much. I can not say I share your scepticism, obviously. Sure no system is perfect, but then do we expect it to be? As for your belief that a racist cartoon about Danes in a European newspaper would quickly be dismissed as racist and forbidden I can not say that I share your belief on that one either.

Having said that, what has a court to decide.. do we not have the free speech to declare anything.. even when it is racist?

Freedom of speech has its limits of course when it is a hate speech or an incitement to racial violence or violence in general. Norway and Denmark even have a blasphemous paragraph which is seldom in use by the way. If Muslim people find these cartoons offensive, blasphemous and even racist well they could have their day in court, although I doubt they would get a favourable ruling because the freedom of speech principle is so important in European societies. Of course you might say, with your deep scepticism towards the system, that this is a racist ruling and you are entitled to say so and believe so in a free society. That doesn't nesseccarily make it more true.

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by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 06:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

So, we see where we disagree. I think you are utterly wrong and that the data in Europe compelely support my case of biased system.. in TV, in newspapers, in the justice system.

But you know.. I will change my opinion gladly if you could come to Spain and dress yourself and live a life as a muslim.. exactly as a muslim.. in Almeria let's say. If you have nay problem ..go to the police or the justice system....and then you come back.

Go there. for just six months.. well maybe even less because I do not want you any harm.. you come back and you explain me that I was totally wrong...I will inmediately change my opinion.

Meanwhile I am entiitle to my opinion that you are just completely blind on these things, that you do not want to see..after all it does not affect you
And again you are perfectly entitle to your opinion that this is not the case and that the system is balanced...but this does not make it any more true neither...actually I think is just like defending that the earth is flat...but again you are entitle to be completely wrong:) Lucky of this free society that allows me to defend that Earth is not exactly flat(this last sentence is a little bit condescending.. well, just how I felt about your last post).

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 06:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

I do agree with you on your point that it is racist views in Europe, but not that they are so deeply entrenched in the whole system. There are racism everywhere both in Europe and in the Middle East, but that doesn't make it systematic.

I think it is safe to say that we both could agree to disagree on this matter.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 06:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

Maybe I just live in Spain, and here you notice that is entrenched more deeply. I think we agree to disagree..I could actually think that depending on your hisotry and where you live, i could indeed have your perception..We can interchange our lifes for a while...:)

A friend (living in Danemarkk for five years) told me that Danemark is basically the same as Spain.. and another one living in US and Norway told met hat nothing compared to racism you can see in Spain...in Norway there is more than in the US, he claimed, but nothing like Spain.

So, it is a deep world perception difference. I indeed think that the same cartoon written against jews or catholics would be banned, actually I think self-censorship would have worked...but not in the case of muslims..they are the minority and the one object of constant ridicule and racism. This is why admire the british newspapers...the always ask what would I have done if instead of a muslim it would have been a jew or a anglican?...and they go from there...This is my philosophy.

So happy to disagree...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:03:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

Well, I am a tolerant guy, no offence taken. ;)

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by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 07:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

And I do apologize if anything I said in my previous comments insulted you in any way since that was not my intention at all.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 07:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

jesus no.

Interpreting that someone else looks like is writing some condescending sentence (one) is no offense, even less insulting and not necessarily true.. oh jesus no.

NO need for these apologies at all...

Actually if you had the need to apologize I certainly did something wrong. Sorry for that.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

Quote:
Freedom of speech has its limits of course when it is a hate speech or an incitement to racial violence or violence in general.
*
Well here is the REAL PROBLEM! Who is there to decide when it is "hate speech" ...People are not all sensitive equally...
Quote:
Well they could have their day in court, although I doubt they would get a favorable ruling because the freedom of speech principle is so important in European societies.
*
Here the real problem lies. So if you are European (just in this case) you can offend anybody as long it's within Europe? But the world is GLOBAL village today. Americans and Europeans "cared" so much that Saddam Hussein striped his people of democracy that they had to occupy his country...C'mon ...if only things are that simple and easy...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 11:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

Well, I am afraid they are. That is why we have national laws upheld by national governments. As long as I abide by the laws in the respective country I am entitled to do what I want. We have of course international law, but with no means of enforcing it.

And I seem to remember that it was not only The US and some European countries that "occupied" Iraq. If I remember correctly Australia is also in the "Coalition of the willing".

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 12:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

Yap unfortunately you are right about Australia...but I just wanted to make a point there. Of course you know that I am naturalized Australian and first of all Serb and European ...I tried my best as a citizen of Australia to stop Howard's decision, I protested with others...but you know...
There are national and international laws but also there is a "common sense". We are asked to use a common sense when super and other powers are about to do the things against and outside the law (like occupying and bombarding other people's countries) but we are not to use it if we are not told by them...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 01:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Muslim Cartoon Controversy: (none / 0)

Well, common sense seems to be a relative term in this case. :)

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 10:13:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Muslim Cartoon Controversy: What the Media Isn't Telling You | 78 comments (78 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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