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It's the same fight | 94 comments (94 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Hey guys (none / 0)

This is dangerous nonsense, even on a liberal progressive site. Immediately after a weekend when ordinary, peaceful Americans went out onto the streets in far greater numbers than anywhere else in the world, you are being lectured to about how to protest, what these protests should be concerned with and given a false model of what these protests should be achieving.

Welshman's diary :: ::

I have brought vicious attack upon myself for challenging the powerful force of a devoted clique of bloggers from other sites who resent any opposite opinion to their own. I will take that risk again for the sake of honest expression of contrary view on Daily Kos and because what is being represented comes from Europe. Not France's Europe, but our Europe - the Europe of all of us on this side of the Atlantic.

Tell me who's part of the enforcement squad, so that I can join... I sadly missed the "vicious attacks" on our friendly co-European...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:55:51 AM EST
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
The diary is quite good, but whatever.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:01:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
(link)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Really?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
I did not say that I agree with all that Welshman says, after all it's an opinion piece, only that it's a good diary.

I thought you'd like things like

I believe [France] has real opportunity for long-term growth through its possession of one of the the best balanced and structured economies in Europe.
The bit that you quote and bold has little to do with the actual thrust of the diary, anyway.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:55:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Leaving aside the excess of the beginning of Welshman's diary, his reading of current French events is that, though he loves France for its elan and flair (he might have said panache), France is refusing to face up to challenges that other countries have to face up to (he gives the example of pensions and social security reform). And:

The protests in France are once again about protectionism for a particular section of society.

This is little different from the story as it is told in the international media.

What's so good about it?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Take this, for instance:
Since immediately before the invasion of Iraq, France has been vilified by the right. Any claimed adverse aspect of its behaviour, any adverse indicators regarding its economic performance is seized upon with delight.

The left has been guilty of some of the same myopia. I watched with some sense of despondency about the balance and accuracy in the blogosphere as one week some adverse economic figures were published in the Autumn about France that were trumpeted all over Free Republic, with silence here. The following week, positive forecasts were published about French GNP that showed considerable expected improvement. Silence on the right; "Allez France" on here.



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Yes, I did note that. But I find it's a bit of a figleaf for, by and large, backing up a false version of the anti-CPE conflict, the one that is served up by the media.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:10:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Hey afew, I have not been in France these days so pray tell, what is the true version of the anti-CPE conflict ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Snarques-tu, or is that a serious question?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Je ne snarque pas ; c'est une question sérieuse. Tout ce que j'ai vu à la BBC, ce sont des scènes, assez impressionantes il faut le dire, de manifestants dispersés au lance-eau.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
En Espagne la police n'utilice pas des lance-eaux. Ça doit être parce-qu'on les associe avec la dictature de Franco. Ce sont les pays européens avec plus longues traditions démocratiques où les manifestations sont le plus violentes, et la police reagit aver plus de force.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:22:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Ireland doesn't own any, so when we had the EU presidency the government borrowed them from the PSNI. The Irish police were borrowing ex-RUC water cannons to police protests in Dublin. It aroused some bemused comment, to say the least.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (4.00 / 3)
Brussels police uses political correct Hippie - coloured water canons which have a de-escalating effect on angry protestors. They are painted white ( colour of peace) and sport a multiculti rainbow design (of hope). They blend perfectly in with the peace flags of the crowds. Here is some action in front of the US bunker embassy in Brussels.



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Ritter, if you'd do a few diaries on your protesting past, it would be greatly appreciated!

BTW, did you have any connection with the Dutch kraaker (squatter) movement in 1980? Been on site during any of the house stormings, or know someone who was? (I was at one of these, the 19 August 1980 storming of the Prins Henderikkade ("PH-kade") building, by accident, as a child of tourists.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:48:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 1)
C'est comme en la Hongrie.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
I have horrible spelling mistakes... (sob)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Well, the people I spoke with when getting back to the office seemed to say that all that was a "mise en scène" by the media and that only "une poignée de manifestants" staged protests.
I was surprised indeed as the pictures on the BBC showed pretty serious strife ; I wondered whether that was part of the false coverage by the media afew was referring to.

I confess I missed the deconstructing diaries recently, was already though to keep some coherence in my mind :)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 1)
I think your office colleagues were right. The media, as I and others have said several times now, have made a big play of all this. In fact there were very big peaceful demonstrations, and very small groups who went in for the fighting. The government may have tried, a week ago, to play this card too -- look at the dreadful students busting up the Sorbonne (Gilles de Robien, Minister of Education, looking very père sévère: "This is what happens when we allow...") -- but it hasn't worked with the French who support the student movement 63%. So now the gov't has cooled it. Not so the media.

Politically, where it's at now is hard to judge. The unions have moved in with the students. They have given the gov't an ultimatum, withdraw the CPE project before I don't recall which day, Thursday maybe. Villepin says he won't budge. I have no idea which way it will go. Except that, in the past, attempts at "reform" by the authoritarian high road have always failed in France.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Why is the french government so out of touch? And I don't mean just on the CPE, also on DADVSI, and more.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 1)
Well, they are in touch with their own circle... The kind of people who go to the Davos conference. DADVSI is just what governments all over are lobbied to do, just like the CPE.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
While Metatone is right, I think it's a good question and one I don't have an immediate answer for. What's more, it seems to be a chronic problem in France. Worth thinking about.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
I mean, it's only 4 years ago that the UMP literally swept the parliamentary elections.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Um, I'm not sure what you mean by that comment?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:46:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 1)
The same story as in Genova 2001. Or many subsequent events.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:40:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Yes.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:41:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
That's exactly what I need : someone writing perfect English explaining to me how things really work in France. All of a sudden I get more attentive. Would you be available for classes to yours truly, afew ? :)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Why, Agnes, I'm a very experienced teacher one on one. Of English as a Foreign Tongue, of course. :-)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:51:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Well, I might take advantage, my English is a bit rusty as you certainly noticed.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:16:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
That's nothing a little polishing can't fix.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:46:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
So what would be your on-line advice for emergency fix-up ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 06:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Well, I wouldn't advise you to treat it as an emergency. These things take time. Don't they?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 09:50:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Well, you seem to be pretty good at codes so yes, these things may require the desirable time to be taken.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hey guys (none / 0)
Watch some Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 10:25:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the same fight | 94 comments (94 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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