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I wish you luck with your attempt to convince the Kos crowd that they share anything in common with their European counterparts.  

From my perspective, on the American side of the pond, I see young Democrats and Kos readers, in general, as anti-union, anti-consumer, and pro-business.  That they would identify with the students in France would be a non-starter.

Nonetheless, I applaud your efforts and wish you luck.  

by numediaman on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 09:47:03 PM EST
I'm not surprised that Jerome is meeting resistance over there. I appreciate the information in this thread. It's invaluable.

I will say however that since there are so many variables at work in each and every country, that it's hard to make comparisons between, say, union culture in one country as compared to another.

Kos readers are not exactly your actual representatives of the American Left. They are very involved in the Democratic Party, to a degree far beyond that of most people on the Left. If the Left in America comprises say, 10% of the population (about the same as the far right), then the vast majority of America is in the middle. Kossacks comprise a small subsection of that middle: they can be described as political junkies, but they can't be made to offer a serious critique of the Democratic party. Mention Mother Jones or Counterpunch or Pacifica Radio or Amy Goodman to them, and they turn away toward Air America. They resent true leftists because of Ralph Nader and the Green Party. Air America is the perfect forum for them because it is a partisan radio station, whereas Pacifica's Democracy Now is more apt to air a report such as the one Jerome is offering here.

As for being anti-union, anti-consumer or pro-business, I don't think that's a fair assessment. There is a lot of writing on corporate greed. Kossacks are very concerned with the pro-business congress.

But you're also talking about a country that works very differently than European countries. We don't have a social welfare system like you all do. We pay higher taxes than Europeans do (I read a recent report which shows this to be true) but we receive so very little for it. We have vastly different economic systems. Our unions were once tied to our industries which have declined rapidly. Our unions today (I'm actually a union member) are mainly populated by public employees, and in a country with so few social resources, such unions seem anachronistic even to me precisely because people who do NOT have access to health care and proper schools are footing the bill for unions through taxes. In short, sometimes the unions are causing inequities in the US precisely because the country is so screwed up to begin with, socially. Strengthening union membership would actually retard what America needs to do. America needs to strengthen its social programs and educational system. Too often, the unions get in the way.

by Upstate NY on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 10:02:26 PM EST
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<gasp,,,struggling to regain balance,,,hoping to find heart lung machine>
We pay higher taxes than Europeans do (I read a recent report which shows this to be true) but we receive so very little for it.
Surely you jest,,,,that is so, sooooooo, not true.  Please do a diary on the data that you are referencing.  (btw, make sure your data includes all taxes, like the EU value added taxes, as well as the US state taxes).
by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:15:41 AM EST
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I'm comparing the US to Italy.

I got hit last year with the AMT because of a peculiar real estate circumstance. That was 28% in my bracket (without AMT I would have been at 25%). Add in SS and Medicare and that puts me at 40%. Tag on 7% in state tax, and I'm up to 47% (it was worse when I lived in Yonkers, NY, where you have an extra income tax, then that was 49%). My local property taxes are 15% of my salary. Yup. I have a house that is less than the national median for homes (sub 250k) and I pay over 10k in local property tax on it. In addition, my locality charges 1.5k in service a year. In total, I pay 64% in taxes a year. That's more than my friends in Italy pay total.

I realize that the Scandanavians are in the 70% range, but America is not the home of low taxes unless you're rich and live in Mississippi. Then and only then may you get away with cheaper taxes.

As for VAT and Sales Tax, can we really measure those?

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:49:50 AM EST
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This is a very wierd situation you're in. A high tax state, a special case, apparently a local government that is completely out of control.
by asdf on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:15:03 AM EST
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Welcome to New York.
by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:32:32 AM EST
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My local property taxes are 15% of my salary. Yup.
Hey, I feel for you on this one.  That is really incredible.  I live in Kalifornia, which I've thought is crazy, but at least we got the property tax side of things right, IMO.
As for VAT and Sales Tax, can we really measure those?
Occassionally you say those pie charts that show how a countries GDP is broken down by who spends the money (government versus private) and, often, then shown by the source of the government's money.  I did a quick search last night and couldn't find one,,,but one we'll pop up in the next year or so, and I'll try to remember to post a diary on it.  But this captures the VAT and different state income taxes--I think you are right it would be difficult otherwise, though one could make some analytical estimates.
by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:47:23 AM EST
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California swung like a pendulum from one extreme on the property tax scale to the other. The effects of prop 13 are starving the state and local governments.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:56:50 AM EST
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I guess my perspective on that would be different, and more in line with the California homeowners, who want crazy when Warren Buffet as advisor to Arnie, suggested changing that property tax.  IMO, and theirs, it is simply outrageous for people to work all their lives in CA, retire, only to have their housing prices grow insanely,,,,,and then be unable to retire in the home they have lived in for, say 25 years.

Now, I would agree with you if that was the states only source of tax revenue, but it's not.  State sales tax is among the highest in the country, at about 9.5%,,,,sales tax is also high, in the 8--9% range depending....And the property tax does go up for the change in CPI.

starving the state and local governments.
Give me a break.  Why can't we expect our politicians to manage within reasonable budgets??  these politicians here are totally loopy, and incompetent regarding managing spending.
by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:20:38 PM EST
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Remember when Gray Davis proposed to roll back the car tax rebate () because of the state's budget woes? Arnie run on a platform consisting essentially of "I'll repeal the car tax" and within weeks of being elected he declareda budget emergency. I call that a responsible fiscal policy. Not.

() The legislature had voted to waive the car tax as long as the state budget could afford it, but then people got used to it and the Republicans sold "rolling back the waiver" as "instituting a new tax".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:26:04 PM EST
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Yikes, sorry about the bolding. It's unintentional.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:26:50 PM EST
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I do agree with how you characterize that car tax situation.  
by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:43:10 PM EST
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Income taxes are indeed lower in a number of countries, but social payments are of course higher (which should then probably be compared to private insurance payments for health care and contributions to pensions), leading to the usual ranking of "net public charges" on income being higher in Europe overall.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:52:39 AM EST
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yes but there is a difference between who makes the decision and spends the money, isn't there?  If you believe that the state knows best as to how to plan you individual retirement, and your healthcare, then the more socialized system is for you.  the economic and social outcomes, IMO, are different--and not all positive for one side versus the other, just different.
by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:25:32 PM EST
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