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...that The Fountainhead was one of my favorite movies.

I was interested in being an architect at the time, and the message of social conformism crushing individual creativity was very real to me, on account in my childhood experience it was actually happening.

That the original author of the story was in fact the next best thing to Satan wasn't really part of my thinking at the age of 10.

That I grew up in the American Southeast, as opposed to some socialist paradise which the Old South most certainly isn't, does not take away from the fact that in some circles, my making the above statement is infamia, an unforgivable sin, and therefore I am by definition evil.

I see diaries like this, I know what the intent is: to counter a grievous and misguided attack on communitarian values by a bright yet alienated woman.

Yet there is as much evil committed in the name of the social as in the name of the individual, and since the collective will, good, whatever is far more often invoked, well, calling it like I see it, I'll take the body count attributed to malicious advocacy of the self over the malicious defense of the commonality any day of the week.

On account the ratio is per my estimate on the order of  1:1,000, at the most favorable to collectivism in its various forms. And in my opinion, far closer to 1:100,000.

No one ever perpetrated a Holocaust, so that individuals may be free. No one ever set loose a pogrom or a lynch mob, to liberate. Just to defense a group, an identity, a commonly held notion of who gets to live and who must die so that the in-crowd may prevail.

One speaks of Americans being influenced. Most are influenced by various forms of defense of the herd far more than defense of individual liberty.

Remind me, then who perpetrated the Holocaust. I do believe it was a society far more in touch and the time -- and now -- with socialist principles.

Yep. I'm quite sure of it now.

Funny, how that sort of thing just...slips under the radar.

Have Keyboard. Will Travel. :)

by cskendrick (cs ke nd ri c k @h ot m ail dot c om) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 07:56:05 PM EST
..or the onset of Alzheimer's, but bugger me if I am able to make out just what you're saying here...

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Alexander G Rubio (alexander.rubio@gmail.com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 08:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh, just the usual ahistorical "the Nazi party's unabbreviated name had the word Sozialist in it, therefore Socialism=Nazism=Eeeeeevil" mantra.  never mind the feral facts... that the Nazis in fact destroyed communist and socialist parties, magazines, libraries, and newsletters, busted unions, etc.;  that much of the heroic underground resistance in France, Italy, and even w/in Germany was undertaken by communist groups;  or that no small number of those resistance cells were subsequently betrayed to the Nazis/Fascists just before the Allied victory... by the Allies, who were already working on the "containing Communism" strategy.  I suppose the fact that one of the words in the unabbreviated name of the DNC is "Democratic" means that they actually represent democracy?  :-)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 09:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...in what way Nazism was a orgy of individualism run amok.

Because I don't see how a movement that based its legitimacy on being an ultranationalist version of communism was anything but a form of socialism gone mad.

Sometimes, even in Europe, the working class falls in behind the wrong party.

Must be a human thing, and last I checked, the same species of hominid resides on both sides of the Atlantic.

Have Keyboard. Will Travel. :)

by cskendrick (cs ke nd ri c k @h ot m ail dot c om) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 01:56:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who would you chalk the 100,000 dead Iraqis of the past 3 years to?

"Malicious advocacy of the self", or  "malicious defense of the commonality"?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 06:58:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is that it smacks of orthodoxy, albeit a secular and intellectual one, on the warpath against heresy.

regarding the WMD war in Iraq

Bush would claim it was to free Iraqis, ergo, it was individual-minded.

Since that is so not the case...

Have Keyboard. Will Travel. :)

by cskendrick (cs ke nd ri c k @h ot m ail dot c om) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 04:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So after the pogroms, the lynch mob, the Holocaust, now it's the Inquisition.

You don't ever worry you're overstating your case?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 04:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...for doing exactly that.

Have Keyboard. Will Travel. :)
by cskendrick (cs ke nd ri c k @h ot m ail dot c om) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 07:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a flip response. Trouble is it has nothing to do with anything I can see in this diary or discussion, which I've just read through again to be sure I wasn't dreaming.

Where is anyone overstating what case?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 01:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless, of course, that just happens to be perfectly true.

Have Keyboard. Will Travel. :)
by cskendrick (cs ke nd ri c k @h ot m ail dot c om) on Mon May 1st, 2006 at 07:24:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ayn Rand is evil incarnate

Read through Alexander G Rubio's diary and all the comments up to the point where you Godwin's Lawed in with the Holocaust, etc, and you will see absolutely nothing of the kind you suggest.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue May 2nd, 2006 at 07:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No one ever perpetuated a Holocaust so that individuals may be free.

Au contraire.  Most holocausts are perpetuated at least in part so that individuals (of Type A) may be free -- of the unwanted presence of individuals of Type B.  (Individual profiteering by looting the dead people's persons and property is also a factor).  But to step back a pace (and to be a bit more serious), what mass act of violence has ever been perpetuated under the slogan "so that individuals may be free"?  Is this "free" as in Arbeit Macht Frei?   And if we cannot find such a slogan on the banner of a act of large scale violence does this prove that individualism never generates l.s.v., but socialism does?

Backing off still further, is there even such a thing as an "individual" in this sense, since a holocaust by definition can only be perpetrated by large numbers of individuals acting under either a common ideological agenda or a common agenda of self interest?  A mass murderer no matter how diligent can, absent nuclear or biological weaponry, only kill a rather limited number of people in one lifetime:  holocausts by definition require collective action.  So, this is either a naive, or a deliberately obfuscatory, way to phrase the question.

It is estimated that during the 4 1/2 centuries of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, Portugal was responsible for transporting over 4.5 million Africans (roughly 40% of the total). During the eighteenth century however, when the slave trade accounted for the transport of a staggering 6 million Africans, Britain was the worst transgressor - responsible for almost 2.5 million. (A fact often forgotten by those who regularly cite Britain's prime role in the abolition of the slave trade.) [...]
obligatory url

The Triangle Trade, though morally reprehensible, was integral to the growth of the economies of the United States and Great Britain. The last leg of that trek, known as the Middle Passage, retains the infamy of having been a horrific journey for Africans who had been free in their countries but were being enslaved in the Americas. The Middle Passage is synonymous with intense human suffering, degradation, and mortality.
NTTI lesson plans

Let's ask now, whether the Triangle Trade and related activities of pre-fossil-energy, slavery-based commerce represented a sudden incursion of socialism and commensalism in the freebooting 17th and 18th centuries, the golden era of individualistic philosophy?  The centuries in which was consolidated that Wealth of Nations on which Smith's theories rest, that saw the birth of the highly individualistic "capitalist ideology"?  Were all these slave traders, each out for his own personal profit, somehow closet socialists?  How about the plantation owners who bought these human beings cheap and worked them to death on private plantations for private profit?  collectivist proto-Marxists to a man, no doubt.

Shall we split hairs and say that, well, this wasn't really a holocaust and doesn't count, because the burn rate in human lives was too low, this being a pre-industrial horrorshow?

Or should we conclude that slavery was a "crime of individualism" because the slave traders were
enthusiastic capitalists and believers in competition, and the trade primarily benefitted the economies of nations which became poster children for the Capitalist Way and the Cult of the Individual?  

"Collectivism is evil,"  "Individualism is evil," it's just not a meaningful way of parsing the world.  Without collectivism all along the way, from our primate ancestors to the Internet that enables us to exchange these fanfaronades [or Robinsonades in csk's case, hat tip to the old KM himself], we wouldn't be here.  Without individualism within that collective framework we wouldn't have art and idiosyncrasy and novelty of ideas and all kinds of interesting developments from trivial to profound.  The danger imho lies in idolising -- and I do mean idolising (as Rand did), making a golden calf or a graven image of, one or t'other instead of recognising them as tensile forces in balance providing structural integrity.


The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 10:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Was over intellectualizing the obvious -- that mob rule is bad, no matter how hip the slogans.

And Rand did this to the point of justifying the obscene -- that it's not the moral responsibility of any person to stop mob rule, if I don't feel like it.

That many people sit with their hands in their pockets and let war, slavery, injustice, lynch mobs happen, either out of closet sympathy or fear of becoming the next target of that mob, does not make it any better.

Alas, it does happen.

Ironically, Rand's code is a code of nihilism, ecstasism and subjectivism -- doing what one wants, on whatever impulse is present, for whatever goal one has in mind....or for no reason at all.

In that respect, she was most certainly aligned with the Nazis, or any other movement (read: mob) that has an ad hoc community of interest to do the occasional good deed, or the far more frequent harm to something beautiful, important, valuable and fragile.

Perhaps the intellectual story of her life should be titled "When Good Dialectic Goes Bad".

Still, she did not create the problem of selfishness, as much as tried to patent it and define it into some vehicle for fortifying the will of people who seem to attract public outrage....not all of whom are by definition nice, creative, productive people who if left alone would make the world a better and more beautiful place.

Sometimes, people off by themselves, with no self-restraint, do terrible things. Rand missed that. Boy, did she.

Have Keyboard. Will Travel. :)

by cskendrick (cs ke nd ri c k @h ot m ail dot c om) on Sun Apr 30th, 2006 at 08:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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