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But why don't we dump nuclear waste into volcanoes, to let inverse lava flow take them deep, deep beneath the Earth's surface to be dismantled by extreme pressures? (in well-chosen volcanoes only). Is it worth considering? I just thought of this, and googled to see that it's already discussed. Damn, I thought I was well on the way for a Nobel prize. I googled to find that Philippe Jean Coulomb, from the University of Avignon and vice president of the Precaution Principle Commission, is one of the fathers of this idea. I must find him and kill him.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 12:54:09 PM EST
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Btw you've got to love that guy's name, Coulomb ...
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 12:55:37 PM EST
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I believe that my Localized Black Hole (LBH - with an event horizon of 4 microns diameter) solution is preferable.

By my calculations, a 200 kilo payload (continuous) could be dispatched to another dimension with ease.

Sadly, Project leader Dr Hans Dröppeldorf died during initial testing. He was standing rather too close to the event horizon in a display of bravado. "This is going to make me a star" were his last words before the big switch-on.

We now stand well back.

Alex, we could, if you would like, invite Mr Coulomb to a demonstration of the LBH. Get him too stand a little too close. And the best thing of course is that all evidence is destroyed.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 01:56:28 PM EST
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hehehe
But man, I'd rather entrust the waste (and Mr Coulomb) to David Copperfield than allow anyone to build a black hole on Earth.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:18:12 PM EST
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If you built a micro black hole anywhere on Earth, it would instantly start dropping towards the centre of the Earth, overshoot, and then bounce from the centre to the surface and back again while drilling a little tnnel along its path and growing as it ate the matter in its way to make the tunnel. Not fun at all.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:23:39 PM EST
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is that we use dunk tectonics and frikkin huge magnets. ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:28:49 PM EST
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It's not the size of the magnets but what you can do with it that matters.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 03:51:12 PM EST
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Finnish magnets with more pull than push.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 04:19:00 PM EST
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Actually, the Large Hadron Collider near Geneva (at CERN, the last of the super accelerators), plans on delivering a regular stream of micro black holes if current models are true.

According to Stephen Hawking's findings on the thermodynamics of black hole, they are not black at all. They radiate, and the smaller they are, the hotter and more intense the radiation. So if they are small enough and not fed fast enough, black holes actually explode.

At some point, the "Gamma Ray Bursts" from deep space where shown as evidence that primitive black holes (born from density variations at the big bang), would blast back their mass-energy from time to time. It turned out that super-super-novae are an easier explanation.

Back to the LHC black holes: they cannot explode with more power than what you put in creating them (not much by macroscopic standards), and their lifetime is so short that they have no time to exit the detector at beam collision point.

Even if one were to move a bit further on, its diameter is so small (and its absolute weight to) that its efficient collision diameter with matter would be nil: it would fly through matter, between electron and nucleus, with a gravity pull far below the electromagnetic force that binds them into atoms. So it couldn't eat any, and would not be able to compensate for mass lost in radiation. Eventually, it will still explode after a shord dash.

Pierre
by Pierre on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 04:55:09 PM EST
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is ET working at its beautiful best.... ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 05:01:04 PM EST
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You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 05:03:13 PM EST
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The honest view is that nobody has a clue what the endpoint of Hawking radiation is.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 06:04:06 PM EST
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Lots of physicists have their pet theories about "new physics beyond the standard model". Depending on who you ask, they'll tell you a completely different fairy tal about what the LHC will find. The truth is that they have no idea.

Micro black holes is one of the possible "exotic new physics". Other people say that supersymmetric particles will be found. Everyone expects the Higgs boson to be found, but even in that case they don't know what variety of Higgs boson (of the many that are possible in theory) will be found.

Theory has been "ahead of experiment" for over 30 years now, which is a kind way of saying there has been no substantial experimental input, and nothing incompatible with the standard model (including neutrino oscillations). It's a pitiful state for a scientific field. If the LHC does not find some "exotic" physics, theoretical high energy physics will die of success.

The most enticing evidence of "new physics" is coming from relativistic astrophysics and cosmology.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 06:11:26 PM EST
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Exactly. And if MBH at LHC turn out to be bigger a problem, we may no longer have to worry about peak oil. Nice ;-)

BTW, some folks are finding new ways of studying ultra-high energy particles in the decay chains of cosmic rays entering the earth atmosphere. Here's a link to a webcast of an excellent public conference on this (in french only):

Le Problème des Rayons Cosmiques d'Ultra-Haute Energie

The whole series are quite good: Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris

Pierre

by Pierre on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 10:28:52 AM EST
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Nomad, would it make sense to bury the waste in a subduction zone?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 02:58:32 PM EST
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The bad thing with all these ideas of shooting the spent fuel (aaah...) into the sun or in a subduction zone or whatever is that it lacks retrieveability.

Sooner or later we'll need the waste to feed our breeder reactors. When you have pushed the uranium through a reactor and spent it, it still contains 59/60 of its original energy. Breeder retrieve the remaining 59 parts.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri Apr 28th, 2006 at 06:46:32 PM EST
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If we could find a mechanism which drip feeds the nuclear waste back into the mantle melting pot directly, that would be ideal. Unfortunately, there isn't one right now. The subduction zone dump was better described once by Plan9, but I can't find his post. I'm cautionally optimistic on that one, but would prefer burial where possible.

I'll briefly entertain the notion. On instincts, I would pick the Mariana Trench as one of the better candidates. Not only because of its depth, which gives the nuclear waste some headway, but also because the subduction of the oceanic plate has one of the steepest angles observed. As far as crust instability goes, the Pacific oceanic crust at the Mariana trench can hardly be beaten. (Crust instability has to do with crust isostacy and it is time dependent, related to the growth of the lithosphere. The older an oceanic crust gets, the more it wants to sink back into the mantle.)

Beside the point of retrievability Starvid highlights, there is the problem that dumping the nuclear rods does not guarantee immediate entry. Hence the containers will have to be absolute contamination proof. The option Plan9 posted is in that respect interesting: jettisoning the containesr into the sedimentary accumulated clays which work as a backup guarantee in case the containment barrels crack. I didn't know that option before, but it could solve helping the risks of relative short term contamination.

However... Subduction zones also are know to scrape off whole slivers of soft sediment of the subducting crust. It's a bit of a convoluted subject; they're hard to study. I'd say, at first thought, there's a real risk that the sediment with blobs of rod-containers just get piled onto the ocean floor. Do we want that to be our legacy? In the end (the really long end) this will pose no problem as all oceanic crust gets recycled. I'd like to hear Plan9's view on this, too. I'd think that even if the ocean sediments get sliced off, the radiation levels would have significantly dropped by that time. But still. Not exactly a clean-job in that case.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 11:08:34 AM EST
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Not all oceanic crust gets recycled. The lucky ones make it on top of a continental crust and could get promoted to become mountain ranges later. Ophiolites would be a good example.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Apr 29th, 2006 at 11:14:34 AM EST
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