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If there's any European country in which I must put faith in its geological bedrock to store nuclear waste, it would be the Nordic ones. The Baltic shield is as geologically stable as they come, as opposed to Yucca mountain... (Not that this would make Yucca a bad gamble, but in a geological sense, the future prospects of Yucca are a lot more unstable, being slap bang nearby the Basin and Range faulting of West America.)
It sometimes seems that they try to prevent the historical waste problem from being solved because then the main argument against new nuclear power plants ('what do we do with all the waste?') evaporates.
Sort of like the Republicans not really wanting to get rid of abortion because, without their main rallying issue, they mihgt be unable to mobilize their base. A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
Not to go off topic, but if Republicans really wanted to get rid off abortion, sex ed in schools and readily available contraceptives (including morning-after pills) would be a good place to start... "The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
By my calculations, a 200 kilo payload (continuous) could be dispatched to another dimension with ease.
Sadly, Project leader Dr Hans Dröppeldorf died during initial testing. He was standing rather too close to the event horizon in a display of bravado. "This is going to make me a star" were his last words before the big switch-on.
We now stand well back.
Alex, we could, if you would like, invite Mr Coulomb to a demonstration of the LBH. Get him too stand a little too close. And the best thing of course is that all evidence is destroyed. You can't be me, I'm taken
Micro black holes is one of the possible "exotic new physics". Other people say that supersymmetric particles will be found. Everyone expects the Higgs boson to be found, but even in that case they don't know what variety of Higgs boson (of the many that are possible in theory) will be found.
Theory has been "ahead of experiment" for over 30 years now, which is a kind way of saying there has been no substantial experimental input, and nothing incompatible with the standard model (including neutrino oscillations). It's a pitiful state for a scientific field. If the LHC does not find some "exotic" physics, theoretical high energy physics will die of success.
The most enticing evidence of "new physics" is coming from relativistic astrophysics and cosmology. A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
BTW, some folks are finding new ways of studying ultra-high energy particles in the decay chains of cosmic rays entering the earth atmosphere. Here's a link to a webcast of an excellent public conference on this (in french only): Le Problème des Rayons Cosmiques d'Ultra-Haute Energie The whole series are quite good: Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris Pierre
Sooner or later we'll need the waste to feed our breeder reactors. When you have pushed the uranium through a reactor and spent it, it still contains 59/60 of its original energy. Breeder retrieve the remaining 59 parts. Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
I'll briefly entertain the notion. On instincts, I would pick the Mariana Trench as one of the better candidates. Not only because of its depth, which gives the nuclear waste some headway, but also because the subduction of the oceanic plate has one of the steepest angles observed. As far as crust instability goes, the Pacific oceanic crust at the Mariana trench can hardly be beaten. (Crust instability has to do with crust isostacy and it is time dependent, related to the growth of the lithosphere. The older an oceanic crust gets, the more it wants to sink back into the mantle.)
Beside the point of retrievability Starvid highlights, there is the problem that dumping the nuclear rods does not guarantee immediate entry. Hence the containers will have to be absolute contamination proof. The option Plan9 posted is in that respect interesting: jettisoning the containesr into the sedimentary accumulated clays which work as a backup guarantee in case the containment barrels crack. I didn't know that option before, but it could solve helping the risks of relative short term contamination.
However... Subduction zones also are know to scrape off whole slivers of soft sediment of the subducting crust. It's a bit of a convoluted subject; they're hard to study. I'd say, at first thought, there's a real risk that the sediment with blobs of rod-containers just get piled onto the ocean floor. Do we want that to be our legacy? In the end (the really long end) this will pose no problem as all oceanic crust gets recycled. I'd like to hear Plan9's view on this, too. I'd think that even if the ocean sediments get sliced off, the radiation levels would have significantly dropped by that time. But still. Not exactly a clean-job in that case.
the anniversary of chernobyl, and more and more bloggers here putting down greenpeace, and buying into this delusional craziness.
seems like i'm about the only one here who doesn't think that nuclear power is a bad idea.
lesser of two evils, blablabla
too cheap to meter....
all this money digging holes in the ground...what a metaphor for the denial you nuke supporters project on people who would rather spend those megabux on conservation.
just...wow
very nice for the corporations decried here so often, that a 'lefty' blog should so heartily endorse the nuclear industry.
flame away... colour me disappointed. 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
The launch infrastucture required would also provide the infrastructure needed for NEO (Home, home on LaGrange!) colonies. She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
I'm afraid given how much noise was made about using a few hundred grams of plutonium for a thermal generator on a NASA probe (what if the rocket explodes on launch and spreads the Pu?) that solution is politically unworkable. A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
But, but... wouldn't that make the Sun radioactive?
Yes. And that is the downside - but ... it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
I know it's not political feasible, and maybe not even practical, but a guy can dream, eh? She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
How about a Beanstalk to LEO and Ion-Drives on the other side of the Van Allen belt. She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
until someone a lot smarter than me figures it out though, we'd be much better off not creating any more...
flirting with collective species suicide=delusional crazIness.
just sayin' 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
greenpeace is a truth seeking, activist, public safety watchdog group, who do a lot more than most to courageously head off an increasingly insane set of pseudo-solutions to man-made problems.
not a waste disposal think-tank!
putting them down for not being omniscient is arrogant, imo.
they are heroes, and should be acknowledged as such, not put down for not being what they don't claim to be, or not being what you would have them be.
wassa matter, don't like dolphins? 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
If waste is left in the reactors, greenpeace protests.
If waste is moved, by rail or by ship, greenpeace protests.
If waste is buried, greenpeace protests.
If waste is reprocessed, greenpeace protests.
Which leads me to conclude that the people in charge of handling the waste should pay zero attention to greenpeace, as their protest is not constuctive. As a truth-seeking advocacy group, they should seek out and advocate the best solution for nuclear waste. I agree the best solution is not to create any more, but what about the existing waste? That is a question that is never posed to Greenpeace, and I suppose their answer would be "that's not our problem, we didn't make the waste". Which is very helpful.
I like dolphins, "save the whales" is an entirely different game. Conflating the two is muddling the waters. A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
once again you decry greenpeace for not having solutions to the waste issue....
i find this obtuse and negative.
let others whose job it could be find solutions, sorry but your argument is made of straw .
or do you just slag off greenpeace for kicks?
criticise those who gave us the waste, not those who seek to wake us from our narcolepsy, and i would support your comment.
it's like your sneering at greenpeace, and they are heroes to me, so i feel duty-bound to point out the fallacious logic you are employing.
misdirected...that's all.
apples and oranges! 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
I've seen this with my oil pipelines - some NGOs are opposing all pipelines on principle, because they only feed our oil-based economy and contribute to corruption and economic inequality where they are. So no matter how reasonable the proposed solutions are, they will be opposed.
While I agree to an extent that "oil is evil", I don't see this as the way to go. Our oil civilisation will change when we tackle demand, not supply. In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
It sometimes seems that they try to prevent the historical waste problem from being solved because then the main argument against new nuclear power plants ('what do we do with all the waste?') evaporates. Sort of like the Republicans not really wanting to get rid of abortion because, without their main rallying issue, they might be unable to mobilize their base.
Sort of like the Republicans not really wanting to get rid of abortion because, without their main rallying issue, they might be unable to mobilize their base.
In the case of expert organizations (such as Greenpeace) with access to wide range of professional expertise, and the ability, at least, to scientifically collate all parts of the argument, their failure to support the best of existing solutions, or perhaps come up with a new one, reveals IMHO a political problem.
That political problem is funding. Certain positions have to be taken in order to retain such funding.
Though Greenpace may not be a 'think-tank', my impression is that in all other areas of concern to them they have proposed solutions. Why not here in the nuclear waste disposal debate? You can't be me, I'm taken
there are only more or less controversial ones, afaik.
as for oil, i see the ngo's point, although the damage to the environment and human health of feeding further oil dependency may be as bad as nuclear waste and accident fallout at the end of the day, it should not be an either/or, but rather a neither/nor.
as jerome brings it back into perspective, i fully agree. if we took conservation and elegance of solution to be the guidelines, we would look first to conservation, then to gradated lesser-evil answers.
whereas many of you may find my views blue-sky or utopian, i find the passive acceptance of the inevitability of the 'french solution' to scale up and sort the global human energy equation to be dangerous in its skirting of the need to break down our requirements to those which are truly essential, before handing over the keys to the bechtels and westinghouses of centralised, top-down, reliably mendacious energy rentiers, none of whose track records inspire a fraction of the trust i would want to feel, regarding future generations and our responsibility to passing on a liveable planet to them.
we in the west have set a terrible example, and now the new superpowers see no need to think more rationally than we did.
what has almost done us in, as practised by much less than half of the world population, will certainly be unsustainable as the rest follows suit.
the most likely scenario is that mother nature has timed the end of fossil fuels to coincide with our awakening as a species to the life-and-death choices and responsibilities we face, and how we could and should live equitably in a world of finite resources.
setting the wheels in motion fto finance, locate, justify to the already jaded and burned public, the number of nuke plants that would be needed to make a dent in our fossil fuel addiction, will deliver a very polarised choice to an ever more savvy and sceptical public.
my bet is that the world will move much more smartly towards cutting demand, and creating new, 'soft' solutions to challenges energy corporations will repeatedly try to snow us into accepting.
i remember the cognitive dissonance i experienced through the eighties, when the media was busily misinforming us about how solar was a dodgy, unreliable source, yet increasingly PV panels were popping up on all sorts of places, from lake buoy nightlights, to traffic signals.
a perfect metaphor is the drm efforts to sequester intellectual property versus the bit-torrent model.
one is elegant and liberating, the other a dinosaur that has called the shots for a long while now.
one insure-able, the other not...
it is greenpeace's job to knock holes in projected plans for waste disposal, and to alert us to the self-serving conniptions, greenwashing and propaganda those who claim to have solutions are not above using. 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
maybe because there aren't any satisfactory ones!
But Mig has consistently raised the question not of nuclear power per se, but of what to do with all the 100,000 year waste that is currently stored in less than ideal circumstances. There have been no answers to that little problem yet - or even acknowledgement that it is a problem that requires a solution.
I equate that failure to the Catholic Church's failure to see contraception as a life and death problem in areas ravaged by AIDS; instead insisting that it is a moral problem. Pragmatism v Dogmatism. How many millions have to die before pragmatism overcomes? You can't be me, I'm taken
(Yeah, I'm unfairly exaggerating for effect. But somehow we will survive withouth the panda bears.)
I also fully support a international co-operative research project into fusion power. She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
If there's leakage, it's bad no matter where the waste is placed. In my opinion, better eight kilometers down in the ocean than eight kilometers up into the sky.
I think there are a few hundred thousand people in northern Ukraine who'd concur. Have Keyboard. Will Travel. :)
Just driving through Finland, where the highways often cut through solid granite, you can see what a thin sliver of life there is on the surface of the bedrock.
Out in the archipelago I am always amazed to see smooth soilless rocky islands with tiny stunted trees - life seems to find a way using the build up of dirt in cracks etc. You can't be me, I'm taken
The oldest gneisses I know of are visible at an outcrop beside the main motorway leading out of Mbabane in Swaziland. But time moves fast; perhaps they identified an older one by now...
But Pre-Cambrium, you bet your pants. Stable as... as... well, a rock. At the structural geology group in Utrecht, they work mostly in Norway, but also Lapland is in the spotlight. There's an interesting new tectonic phenomena developed by the group based on what they pry out of the rocks in Scandinavia from the Caledonian Orogeny: dunk tectonics they call it. It has been causing somewhat of a stir among the structural crowd as it upsets the idea that the process of subduction and getting rid of crustal material is far too simple a model.
Baltica was a big orogeny player in geologic history: Here's a snapshot of what they think the globe looked some 400 plus million years ago. Spot your beloved Finland...
It was really gneiss of you...
I would guess that Finland is somewhere a little to the east of Greenland? You can't be me, I'm taken
The rocks in Scotland from the Baltic Shield are European mainland traitors. They decided to stick with England during the breakup of Pangea, some 60-80 million years ago. The most northern highlands of Scotland are mostly made up of the Baltic Shield, and all the way to the south there's a suture zone with the rocks from England and the former Iapetus Ocean, I've heard that doing a north-south cross section is quite spectacular. Even more spectacular is that the famous stretched glens could be on top of ultra-old shear-zones that were re-activated again and again in their geologic past. This is not proven, but it's fascinating to muse about. Even without such esoteric thoughts, the Great Glen Fault is worth to be put on the "What I Need to See Before I Die" List for geologists.
And as I always say, there's a sound geological reason why British politics is so focused on the Anglo-American relation: if it wasn't for the failing rift in the North sea (the one that led to the copious oil & gas reservoirs), the UK would've been one of the islands nearby Maine, or nearby. Instead, the rifting continued west of the British Isles, and here we are today...
I think the very (to my ear somewhat nervous/testy) levity of this discussion highlights a problem that worries nuke skeptics, including myself: a seemingly feckless, boyish/macho enthusiasm for "technoniftiness" and a callous, we-know-what's-good-for-you-so-shut-up contempt for other (lesser?) people's concerns.
Greenpeace like any other embodied organisation has its problems, but it has been on the right side of many conflicts of interest over the years. it represents a large and fairly diverse constituency, including sober scientists and idealistic high school kids, worried moms and dads, disillusioned elders, as well as the stereotypical "dreadlocks and crystals" anarcholefties. and many of this last demographic, in my personal experience, do at least walk their talk -- ride their bikes, live vegetarian or vegan, reduce their consumption; which I find more palatable than the yuppie couples from Marin who drive their SUV to the park to buy some hemp tunics at the Earth Day Faire. I could do without the crystals and chanting, but when it comes to BTUs consumed per person I'm more tolerant of the frugal rainbow brigade than of the Veblenesque consumers trying to have their planet and eat it too.
I reject and will go on rejecting the old "do it our way or shiver in the dark / live in caves" meme deployed by the nuke proponents, the coal lobby, the oil lobby, the Bush regime... that is false dichotomy. there is a helluva lot of wiggle room between the sultanic lifestyle touted by infinite-growth finance capitalists and "shivering in the dark." my sense is that it is possible to live a decent life within a sustainable annual energy budget, without resort to yet more Filth Technologies, laying waste to yet more millions of acres of watershed and biotic habitat, etc. what is needed is systemic change, not just hot-swap plugnplay retooling.
as to what we should do with existing waste, bribing (low income?) communities with hospitals and other goodies seems ironically (or do I mean appropriately) mafiosic. I think it should be stored in secure, heavily-engineered underground vaults beneath the luxury homes of the executives and directors of Bechtel, GE, and all the other corporations who profited enormously from the nuclear porkbarrel so far and are shoving and jostling even now to snarf up more from the same trough. if it is not safe enough for their families to live with for the rest of their lives, then why should they be allowed to shove it off on other people's families? these guys own a lot of real estate in areas with low population densities; sounds like a perfect risk-minimising strategy to me. The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
If you want my serious answer, I'd say that some answers lie in going forward rather than backward.
As an example: the electric noosphere might one day reduce the need for the majority of people to go to work physically or to fly all over the planet for meetings.
We have already discussed here what replacing all domestic tungsten lighting by neon bulbs couid achieve. Or wind power, wave power etc etc.
I don't think many here are against Greenpeace, except when it goes aginst science, I believe we are all solidly against war of all kinds - including the war on 'terrorism'.
And please don't equate American mafioso failures with, for instance, Finland. You can't be me, I'm taken
oh that's right, sorry, we're not talking about the US here... The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
The ash that is produced is stable and can be mixed with concrete for safe storage.
That is all I know, (or understand) except that VTT - the Finnish Technical Research Centre is building a half scale industrial pilot.
I certainly feel more secure living in a country where 70% or more of CEOs have engineering degrees, and the highest per capita investment in R&D in the world.
Strangely enough, Finnish politicians are 95% 'ordinary people'. By that I mean that you don't need to be rich to enter parliament, you just need the motivation. They get paid a very good government salary - too good perhaps, but rather that than the corruption that one sees in politics in other Western countries. An old friend of mine, a jazz drummer, is now an MP. And you can meet politicians in the street, in bars, in the shops - the foreign minister shops at my local supermarket on his way to his summer cottage. I've seen him carrying his own shopping out to his car - not a guard in sight. (Not that I'm an expert in spotting them) You can't be me, I'm taken
I find the case of Yucca mountain in regard to bribing or exploiting communities to use their turf for waste disposal discomforting and share your sentiments there. It reeks of continuous neo-colonialism. But this angle simply cannot be projected onto Finland which has vast stretches of practically deserted land and which has geology that's the closest to the ideal for the nuclear mafia equivalent of pouring enemies into concrete.
I hope you know by now that I completely share your vision of a switch to energy reducing lifestyle. Yet even so, I also feel we should stay realistic enough that we need to fairly consider an energy back-up to our on oil floating world. Can we produce an amount of energy by renewables only, not just for the modern western world even with a major switch in lifestyle, but also for those parts in the world starting to catch on with the computer age? I don't know, but I've enough trust in radionuclear technology - if handled with vigilance and dedicated care by experts not driven by margins of profit - to leave it on my list (for now).
As said somewhere else, the priority of the oil energy switch in practice should be 1) Renewables 2) Conservation 3) Nuclear 4) Coal (gods forbid).
Through my work, I know that the very best engineering is applied to the problem in Finland. It is highly regulated - unlike the Chernobyl case.
Finland haa deep energy problem. There are no natural resources. The Baltic has no tides and few near-shore waves except in storms. Wind farms we have but they are low efficiency. There is a little bit of ground heat and many people are now adding this to their homes as background heating.
So 25% of our electrical energy comes from Russia - from Soviet-era reactors that should probably not be allowed.
Paavo Lipponen (speaker of the parliament and the last PM) today announced he is in favour of a 6th reactor to be built as soon as possible. I personally have no fears of that, but I do question if it is needed. Manufacturing is running down, though there is still steel and other ore processing going on in large scale. The paper and pulp mills have really cleaned up their act over the last two decades and some of them are grid energy-independent.
The problem is more domestic consumption, which we can do something about in terms of lighting, more energy efficient household appliances etc. An apartment block recently built in Espoo, using a unique energy recovery system, saves 70% energy consumption. More expensive to build, but figured to pay for itself in 15 years (probably less now). And, of course, cars, which the Finns love. But more and more I note, outworking is being promoted. Finland is very connected by wireless and companies are warming up to the idea that you can work for them other than in a downtown office. The mobile and software industry is providing the tools to do this.
The bottom line is that winter is cold. There has to be heating. However there is lots that can be done to make everything more efficient. The government is moving to action on this. Finland is the most debt-free country in Europe, a banker told me the other day that Finland could borrow a trillion Euros with affecting our triple A rating. It is time to invest in reducing energy consumption, by education, motivation, law and by investment. You can't be me, I'm taken
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