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you're asking me what to do with the waste.....? lol!

until someone a lot smarter than me figures it out though, we'd be much better off not creating any more...

flirting with collective species suicide=delusional crazIness.

just sayin'

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 07:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I put down greenpeace because I have not yet seen a waste management scheme that they like, and so I have to ask what is their desired waste management scheme? But they don't seem to have one, now do they?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 07:52:16 AM EST
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excuse me, but isn't that asking an apple tree to bear oranges?

greenpeace is a truth seeking, activist, public safety watchdog group, who do a lot more than most to courageously head off an increasingly insane set of pseudo-solutions to man-made problems.

not a waste disposal think-tank!

putting them down for not being omniscient is arrogant, imo.

they are heroes, and should be acknowledged as such, not put down for not being what they don't claim to be, or not being what you would have them be.

wassa matter, don't like dolphins?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 09:40:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Grenpeace is, you are correct, not a waste-disposal think tank. However...

If waste is left in the reactors, greenpeace protests.

If waste is moved, by rail or by ship, greenpeace protests.

If waste is buried, greenpeace protests.

If waste is reprocessed, greenpeace protests.

Which leads me to conclude that the people in charge of handling the waste should pay zero attention to greenpeace, as their protest is not constuctive. As a truth-seeking advocacy group, they should seek out and advocate the best solution for nuclear waste. I agree the best solution is not to create any more, but what about the existing waste? That is a question that is never posed to Greenpeace, and I suppose their answer would be "that's not our problem, we didn't make the waste". Which is very helpful.

I like dolphins, "save the whales" is an entirely different game. Conflating the two is muddling the waters.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 10:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
its greenpeace's job to make us aware of what others would rather have hidden, such as transport of toxic stuffs through populated areas.

once again you decry greenpeace for not having solutions to the waste issue....

i find this obtuse and negative.

let others whose job it could be find solutions, sorry but your argument is made of straw .

or do you just slag off greenpeace for kicks?

criticise those who gave us the waste, not those who seek to wake us from our narcolepsy, and i would support your comment.

it's like your sneering at greenpeace, and they are heroes to me, so i feel duty-bound to point out the fallacious logic you are employing.

misdirected...that's all.

apples and oranges!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:16:40 AM EST
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I am not aware of any proposed solution that Greenpeace hasn't opposed vociferously. I am not sure any more that there is actually a solution to the waste problem satisfactory to greenpeace.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:25:33 AM EST
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I think they make a point of opposing ALL solutions on principle, to make nuclear plants such a mess to manage that no more will be built.

I've seen this with my oil pipelines - some NGOs are opposing all pipelines on principle, because they only feed our oil-based economy and contribute to corruption and economic inequality where they are. So no matter how reasonable the proposed solutions are, they will be opposed.

While I agree to an extent that "oil is evil", I don't see this as the way to go. Our oil civilisation will change when we tackle demand, not supply.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:31:02 AM EST
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And with this we get back to my original point, that so disappointed melo
It sometimes seems that they try to prevent the historical waste problem from being solved because then the main argument against new nuclear power plants ('what do we do with all the waste?') evaporates.

Sort of like the Republicans not really wanting to get rid of abortion because, without their main rallying issue, they might be unable to mobilize their base.



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 11:37:49 AM EST
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Citizen protest without offering solutions is fine by me. Such protest can energize a debate. What citizen protest means is "we elected you (or paid or otherwise gave responsibility) to solve this - get on with it", A citizen protest is about the lack of solutions.

In the case of expert organizations (such as Greenpeace) with access to wide range of professional expertise, and the ability, at least, to scientifically collate all parts of the argument, their failure to support the best of existing solutions, or perhaps come up with a new one, reveals IMHO a political problem.

That political problem is funding. Certain positions have to be taken in order to retain such funding.

Though Greenpace may not be a 'think-tank', my impression is that in all other areas of concern to them they have proposed solutions. Why not here in the nuclear waste disposal debate?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 12:41:22 PM EST
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maybe because there aren't any satisfactory ones!

there are only more or less controversial ones, afaik.

as for oil, i see the ngo's point, although the damage to the environment and human health of feeding further oil dependency may be as bad as nuclear waste and accident fallout at the end of the day, it should not be an either/or, but rather a neither/nor.

as jerome brings it back into perspective, i fully agree. if we took conservation and elegance of solution to be the guidelines, we would look first to conservation, then to gradated lesser-evil answers.

whereas many of you may find my views blue-sky or utopian, i find the passive acceptance of the inevitability of the 'french solution' to scale up and sort the global human energy equation to be dangerous in its skirting of the need to break down our requirements to those which are truly essential, before handing over the keys to the bechtels and westinghouses of centralised, top-down, reliably mendacious energy rentiers, none of whose track records inspire a fraction of the trust i would want to feel, regarding future generations and our responsibility to passing on a liveable planet to them.

we in the west have set a terrible example, and now the new superpowers see no need to think more rationally than we did.

what has almost done us in, as practised by much less than half of the world population, will certainly be unsustainable as the rest follows suit.

the most likely scenario is that mother nature has timed the end of fossil fuels to coincide with our awakening as a species to the life-and-death choices and responsibilities we face, and how we could and should live equitably in a world of finite resources.

setting the wheels in motion fto finance, locate, justify to the already jaded and burned public, the number of nuke plants that would be needed to make a dent in our fossil fuel addiction, will deliver a very polarised choice to an ever more savvy and sceptical public.

my bet is that the world will move much more smartly towards cutting demand, and creating new, 'soft' solutions to challenges energy corporations will repeatedly try to snow us into accepting.

i remember the cognitive dissonance i experienced through the eighties, when the media was busily misinforming us about how solar was a dodgy, unreliable source, yet increasingly PV panels were popping up on all sorts of places, from lake buoy nightlights, to traffic signals.

a perfect metaphor is the drm efforts to sequester intellectual property versus the bit-torrent model.

one is elegant and liberating, the other a dinosaur that has called the shots for a long while now.

one insure-able, the other not...

it is greenpeace's job to knock holes in projected plans for waste disposal, and to alert us to the self-serving conniptions, greenwashing and propaganda those who claim to have solutions are not above using.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat May 6th, 2006 at 08:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
maybe because there aren't any satisfactory ones!
And you say this on the basis of what, exactly? Please explain the criteria for a "satisfactory" solution to the problem of the existing nuclear waste.
as jerome brings it back into perspective, i fully agree. if we took conservation and elegance of solution to be the guidelines, we would look first to conservation, then to gradated lesser-evil answers.
Yeah, energy conservation is going to take care of the waste.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 09:55:09 AM EST
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I am fully with you on the intellectual property question. I could see all artistic activity dealt with as with cooking.

But Mig has consistently raised the question not of nuclear power per se, but of what to do with all the 100,000 year waste that is currently stored in less than ideal circumstances. There have been no answers to that little problem yet - or even acknowledgement that it is a problem that requires a solution.

I equate that failure to the Catholic Church's failure to see contraception as a life and death problem in areas ravaged by AIDS; instead insisting that it is a moral problem.  Pragmatism v Dogmatism.
How many millions have to die before pragmatism overcomes?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun May 7th, 2006 at 02:45:54 PM EST
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If they proposed solutions rather than posturing, they would have to accept some sort of responsibility. "Like, don't want to become part of 'the Establishment' and harsh my buzz, man."

(Yeah, I'm unfairly exaggerating for effect. But somehow we will survive withouth the panda bears.)

by Number 6 on Tue May 16th, 2006 at 06:56:49 AM EST
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Aah! Closure!
by Number 6 on Tue May 16th, 2006 at 06:51:21 AM EST
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Nah, groundhog day.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 16th, 2006 at 06:53:50 AM EST
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