Eurabia = Europe sucks | 78 comments (78 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Graph (4.00 / 3)

Curious. How would the graph look like if instead they had featured the percentage per country as the main statistic, with the estimated Muslim population as number at the side?

Still looks scary for France, but would inject a different flavour why the USA might not have faced the more touchy subjects Europe is dealing with...

by Nomad on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 06:32:16 AM EST

Re: Graph (none / 1)

How many angels can stand on the head of a pin? How many Muslims are there in any one of those countries? Most of the 'Muslims' in France are of Algerian origin, many of them for generations, many of whom might not even consider themselves especially Muslim anyway. How many of those Muslims indeed feel comfortable (successful?) in France. And the questions go on and on. The Economist leads us into the world of borderline prejudicial extremism.

Remember: there is no need for Europe to justify itself to the little ol' U.S. of A. Oh right, now I bang into the same old wall again: is the U.K. European.

by Quentin on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 07:20:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Graph (none / 0)

is the U.K. European

According to whom?

Who is behind The Economist, and what is its readership?

Who is the intended target of this bullshit?

Is the UK independent of the US?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 07:24:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Graph (none / 0)

If my recalled figures are correct (I used to work for Pearson plc which owns half of the Economist and all of FT and is run by a Texan who, to be fair, is married to the EIC of the Guardian) a plurality of the readership, as well as the vast majority of the growth, is in America.

There's a reason why this magazine is infuriating.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 07:54:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Graph (none / 0)

A very good question you end with, as did the good General.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 07:51:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Graph (none / 0)

By the way, redstar, you are now on the ET political compass.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 07:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who's... (none / 0)

...the good Generals?

* confused*

by Nomad on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 07:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's... (none / 0)

The good General (singular) is De Gaulle. The UK could only join the EU after he took his veto to the grave with him.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:01:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's... (none / 0)

Unfortunately.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:04:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's... (none / 1)

You know what's really funny? Margaret Thatcher led the yes camp in the EU referendum in the early 1970's. It boggles the mind.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:08:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah (none / 0)

Thanks, a new fact for me. (The s on Generals was a typo, BTW.)

I'm sure my EU sister would've scoffed at me now. My defense: I study the history of rocks, not people.

by Nomad on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah (none / 0)

For some reason I'm able to remember pretty much everything I read on here, and people have mentioned that particular episode repeatedly.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Look... (4.00 / 3)

Context is a concept The Economist apparently fails to pursue with anything they touch - see the Hirsi Ali comment. The only reason I posted this graph is to point out that the figure in the Economist gives the idea to those who don't study the figure in depth that more Muslims are within the USA than European countries - and look, the USA has no troubles at all! It must all be Europe's faulty social model if they can't even handle their miserable amounts of Muslims...

If the Economist can pile all numbers onto one heap, so can I. It just goes to show that with a larger Muslim society, Europe is in a different stage of integration than the USA is - that's all. It makes no sense to draw parallels based only on the amount of total Muslims present. Comparing between two continents when the USA has a percentage of total population that's as large as France, or the Netherlands, that'd make a first start.

Now the Economist included the percentages as well within their figure, but why the choice to present it the way they have it, and not the way I put up? What's the motivation behind that choice? I'm not a statistical expert, so everyone should feel free to point out where my reasoning is flawed.

by Nomad on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 07:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look... (none / 0)

A representation of these data that captures both views at the same time is a scatter plot (not a bar chart) with population on one axis and muslim population on the other, on a log-log scale. Maybe I'll find time to make that chart later today (should take 15 minutes with R, but B is nagging me to put together some IKEA furniture ;-)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:00:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And the pity... (none / 0)

...of IKEA furniture is that they contain not a single formula!!

Must be a dismal Sunday... ;)

I'd be keen to learn that on R, too. At my current progress, however, it'd take me six hours, not 15 minutes... Still on the R learning curve.

by Nomad on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the pity... (none / 0)

Maybe I should e-mail you the code I use to generate each of the graphs I post...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:09:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That'd be neat! (none / 0)

When I was mucking in my fresher year with Fortran (77, no less!), the best way to learn was to study code from other programs, take it apart with a text book, and write the same program yourself from scrap.

I'd certainly appreciate that.

by Nomad on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:13:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the pity... (4.00 / 3)

We could go for an ET graph-off! Here is my take on the political compass:

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 09:03:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the pity... (none / 0)

I always knew my heart was with the Greens. Those bloody Commie bastards can stay where they are!

by Alex in Toulouse on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 09:10:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the pity... (none / 0)

Whoa, what software did you use for that?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 10:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the pity... (none / 0)

It's a perl script generating imagemagick draw commands. Not very efficient. 98 seconds for an 800x800 png with dual P4 3GHz processors.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 10:40:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the pity... (none / 0)

I really should look into R.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 02:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the pity... (none / 1)

IKEA furniture also lack a recent comments button.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 08:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And the pity... (none / 1)

I'm sure IKEA are open to suggestions.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 03:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look... (4.00 / 3)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 12:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The other point to note here (4.00 / 4)

is that most "Muslims" in France are just as secular as their Catholic brethen, so describing them as Muslim is already highly misleading - just like describing me as Catholic.

This presupposes that everybody has a religion- a really sad (and thankfully false) hypothesis.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 11:16:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The other point to note here (4.00 / 5)

This presupposes that everybody has a religion- a really sad (and thankfully false) hypothesis.

When Americans look at the rest of the world, they always assume that people are primarily classified by their religion and ethnicity and everything follows from there. Come to think of it, when they look at themselves they assume the same. The difference is that they assume in the US that "diversity" is a source of strength because of the success of the melting pot, and that abroad it is the source of all conflict, and that the rest of the world needs to learn the American way of integration in order to live with themselves peacefully.

I believe the situation in Iraq would be very different had the Coalition Provisional Authority not come in from the very beginning determined to "manage the ethnic and religious divisions within Iraq".

The frames we wear...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 at 11:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Graph (none / 1)

It would also be useful to compare the socio-economic status of Muslims in the different countries. For instance, are Muslims in the U.S. more likely to be middle class than disadvantaged? As the discussion of the riots in France shows, there are issues that come up when a group is economically disadvantaged that are less likely to come up with a middle class group.

It doesn't help to compare apples and oranges; if there are differences in the demographics between the U.S. and various European countries, this should be taken into account.

by lauramp on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 01:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Eurabia = Europe sucks | 78 comments (78 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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