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But what do we do with resources that are finite but still incredibly big, with thousands of years of current use? Like iron or uranium-238?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 05:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I want to see the figures, and the grades of ore that we are talking about. Why don't you diary them?

The general point still applies, and it is this: there are things that operate on a cycle, where something is produced and at the end of the cycle you are where you started, so you can do it again; then there are things that don't operate in a cycle, where something is extracted and used up. Production from a cycle is a gain, and extraction is a cost. The price of any resource should include the cost of returning the source to its original state.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 06:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Returning the source to its original state? I guess you mean by rehabilitating the mines and cleaning them up, not putting the iron back in the ground? If you mean rehabilitating I am all with you. The easiest way to do that is just legislating that companies have to put enough money in a special rehabilitation fund if they want to mine a certain area.

I might do a diary on iron, but it's just not as exciting writing "Lots of iron, nothing to see here, move along" than "Peak oil, peak gas and peak tires, does god hate cars?". ;)

Anyway, just as an appetizer. Australia is a very big iron producer (or should I say extractor?). Almost all of Australia's iron ore is mined in the Pilbara area. At the current mining rate reserves will last for 300 years.

Another example of the abundance of iron on this world is the pretty much unexploited mountain of El Mutún in Bolivia, home to 70 % of the worlds iron ore.

Uranium-38 is 99,3 % of all uranium, so for every kg of U-235 ever mined there is 140 kg of U-238 lying around. Due to reactor physics it "only" contains 60 times as much energy as the original U-235. There is so much of it around that the Americans are wasting it as cannon shells. They should use tungsten like ordinary people.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 06:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course for mineral resources there is no way to put the ore back in the ground, but there are other resources that are used up and which could be replenished. For instance, topsoil depletion indicates that agriculture is not being run as a cycle but as an extraction process. Or harvesting wood from old-growth forests. Young forests can be replanted without making an impact on the age of the forest, but old growth forest cannot.

So, in a way, mining of minerals, topsoil depletion, or old-growth wood should not be considered to add to the GDP but to subtract from it.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 06:48:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Btw, as a total bystander here, let me ask this: "are potatoes a potential energy resource?". It's damn easy to grow them ... even my own kitchen has a few renegaded potatoes growing like mad, with no water and no direct sunlight (which makes sense, given that it's a root).
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 06:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course. You can make vodka from them, and blend it with gasoline.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 06:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I'm beginning to wonder why I didn't ask why people favour beetroot to potatoes (for biofuel),
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 06:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to wikipedia, sugar beet is 15 to 20% sugar by weight, while potatoes have 15% starch. Starch is a sugar polymer and needs to be broken down before it can be fermented into to alcohol.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:09:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So basically you're indirectly saying that we need to find a way to use sugar polymers directly. Ach, I would have been a physics star if only I had persevered, hips.

I'm still drunk from France's victory, please don't hurt me.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starch has the disadvantage that it is insoluble in water so it will not hydrolyse spontaneously. You need enzymes called amylases to do that, which can be obtained from certain types of bacteria. Ideally there should be a bacterium that could be used for this purpose just like yeast is used to ferment the resulting sugars into alcohol.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:24:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, and then ideally a bacterium that would be simple (in sense "not energetically costly") to grow.

Screw Physics, here I come Chemistry ;))

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean? It would grow on the process of turning starch into sugar, just like yeast grows on the process of turning sugar into alcohol.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:28:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, I think I'm looking at this too much from the gardener's perspective.

I meant grow in the sense "before being used on starch" but now that you mention, it does make sense that bacteria reproduce through division.

Ok Chemistry will have to wait, here I come FIFA Fair-Play department!

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:34:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know how you can just keep a sample of a yoghurt after you make it to seed the next yoghurt? You just need to keep some of the sludge you get from the potato juice before you distill it, and use it to seed the next batch.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I would know at less than 2 grams of alcohol. But as I stand logic is failing me tonight.
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:39:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you were drunk on kefir you wouldn't have forgotten about yoghurt.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My ribs are hurting now, that's very insensitive of yours.
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose it's a good thing you're not frunk on kefir, it could have been really messy as well as painful.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good lord it's a great thing I'm not frunked on kefir. Ouch my ribs, you bastard!

(I have no idea whether that was intentional of yours but it got my ribs moving)

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my defence I aduce the following:
  1. 'd' and 'f' are adjacent keys in a standard QWERTY keyboard.
  2. We are not running the dKos version of the software which forces you to always preview your comments.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I still found your comment very frunny ;)
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok I better log off from ET, I need to get up early tomorrow and jog ... during my jogging I'll daydream about winning a nobel prize in vocabulary (for my secondary use of "osmosis"), after a total breakdown of my logical capacities in physics and chemistry.

G'night Mig (and to you all)!!

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are there any bacteria that feed off other bacteria, and which we could use for energtic input directly?

Can't fathom peak bacteria at all.

Ok I think I really need to give up on Chemistry and even Biology ... here I come Acting School!

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:38:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand your question.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well it wasn't very clear.

I was thinking of a bacterial osmosis, where one bacteria could feed off another bacteria feeding on the first. But I think I'm just trying to sound smart.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you are inventing new definitions of osmosis?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, that's a good point you raise, I used the same term a few days back on ET and looked it up on Merriam & Websters before (but still carried on with using it) because I thought it didn't carry the extra meaning that it does in French. The original meaning exists in both French and English, but in French we also use the term to define a relationship of equilibrium (and joy if applied to humans). Does Spanish have that extra meaning too?
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:50:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ps: it's an acquired meaning, not in original French ...
This is all I found so far:

[sens figuré] Influence réciproque.

Influence réciproque, interpénétration -- Une osmose s'est produite entre ces deux civilisations.

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah.

Strange acquired meaning. Osmosis is usually unidirectional.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Warning: I've just forced myself to drink coffee (I almost never do drink any), so my blood-alcohol content is getting bypassed by my accelerated (facilitated) brain activity.

So exit Physics & Chemistry, here I come Vocabulary ;)))

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uranium-38 should of course be uranium-238.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Due to reactor physics it "only" contains 60 times as much energy as the original U-235.

What do you mean "contains 60 times as much energy" than U-235? In what sense?

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he means 140 times more weight only contains 60 times more energy.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:37:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, that's what I meant.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, what energy are talking about? The energy that can be produced per gram of U-23X in a fission reactor? Do you know of a currently operating commercial fission reactor that uses U-238? Or are we talking about breeder reactors? I'm confused?

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are CANDU reactors which burn U238 and are used to produce energy.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 07:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless the Wikipedia article is missing something, no they don't...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Running on natural uranium, they start-up with the U235 in it, but during the cycle between fwo refuelling, they do turn a lot of the u238 in p239 (that's called having a "high breeding ratio", all reactors have a breeding ratio, they're not call breeders unless it's >1, self-sustained cycles if ~1, and vanilla if <1. In a PWR, something like 25% of the energy at the end of the life of the rods is from p239=from the original u238. The future EPR will have a breeding ratio of 0.7, so it will be even higher than that.)

Candu reactors have high breeding ratios with uranium and thorium, unfortunately the uranium side makes them proliferation friendly (I have a canadian science paper on this I should deconstruct one day).

Pierre
by Pierre on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 04:18:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They use natural (unenriched) uranium, not U-238 if I remember correctly.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:07:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking of breeders.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, so we're not talking about currently operating commercial fission reactors, but possible future reactors. Still there are quite a few problems with breeders (not least of which is  non-proliferation).

For an (oldish) breeder assessment see "Nuclear Power and Energy Security: A Revised Strategy for Japan (1998)" specifically chpt. 4. AFAIK the problems it highlights are still problems today (but I could be wrong).

For a more general skeptical view of nuclear (fission) power in general see "WHY NUCLEAR POWER CANNOT BE A MAJOR ENERGY SOURCE"...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Jun 27th, 2006 at 08:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For the second link.  

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 03:04:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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