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I want to thank you for your effort Sirocco. It really is a huge effort to try to explain this situation fairly...if that's possible at all.
For those of you here who never have known Serbs or who had no chance to personally get to their basics I can only say that we could be very passionate and grateful friends to others but as we have no "forgive and forget" button we are also very passionate enemies. As I explained before, for generations we are passing emotions that were triggered long long time ago. That's why we never see the end of our animosities with others and we have a say to our enemies that goes something like:" We'll have another battle waiting in front of us yet" And we are patient. We waited 500 years to see Ottomans go home. And despite all the terror we are still there...Very stubborn people that will suffer, and cheat and practically do anything for what they believe in. And we believe Kosovo is ours. We can differentiate about the way we need to go to achieve the goal but we all, up and down to the last one, believe that Kosovo is ours and that Albanians being reality, can only be our guests there...guests in our house.
Well, at this point it does not look things are going in our favor but hey, we have a centuries in front of us. We'll wait and see what will come out of these latest western experiments. We made a house "in the middle of the road" and even if Europe wants it, it just can't ignore us...it's not in their economic and strategic interest. We'll be a part of bloody EU sooner or later even if there will never be "love" between us after NATO bombardment. But hey we also have our interests...
In the main time reality is that Kosovo and Albanians there,  are actually your problems now, my brothers from EU and USA and NATO...Good luck with them!


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 01:35:53 AM EST
And we believe Kosovo is ours. We can differentiate about the way we need to go to achieve the goal but we all, up and down to the last one, believe that Kosovo is ours and that Albanians being reality, can only be our guests there...guests in our house.

Sounds like the Likud position on 'Judea and Samaria' (i.e. the West Bank). I guess it's no coincidence that the Israeli right tended to dislike the intervention in Kosovo.

I remember that back in the nineties many Poles I knew liked to say that in a way the Soviet Union's annexation and ethnic cleansing of what had been Eastern Poland had been a favour. If they hadn't, we might well have gone down the Serbian path. Same martyrdom complex, long history of oppression by an empire which shared a religion (Orthodoxy) with the local majority there, ugly civil war within WWII with some of the Ukranian groups collaborating with the Nazis... an alternate history experiment - the Galician war and the NATO bombardment of Poland.

by MarekNYC on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 02:29:14 AM EST
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Not knowing almost anything but contours of Poland history I would say it's hardly comparable.
As for Israelis and West bank I can hardly see similarities too.
I would like to be able to say that world as such has grown out from national issues and that cosmopolitism and not national view is a future but I don't see it. What I see is that rich of the world has found a way to make a "brotherhood" trough globalization in order to make huge profit but when ever they need it on a local level (in order to stay in control of power) they just take out "nationalism card" and here we go again...I would like to "Imagine" world "as one" but I have a TV and I watch news every bloody night...I used to be a dreamer but I am an old woman today...But for all of you who can still dream I am happy.
What's your vision of Kosovo, Marek? What would be right in your eyes?


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 04:41:33 AM EST
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Thanks. I have tried to navigate this minefield without falling prey to too many myths and lies from either side, but as you say, it's hard.

The mentality you describe is why I suspect it's a bit  shortsighted of the EU/US to ignore the Serbian interest in retaining at least part of Kosovo. Even though it's my understanding that young people in Serbia today are less preoccupied with Kosovo than the oldies, these things wax and wane.

There may be no adequate solution. But one possibility that noone in the West wants to consider is partition, whereby the north and west with Serbian majorities and most of the monasteries remain in Serbia and the rest of Kosovo either goes indepedent or joins Albania, as decided by referendum.

Noone will love this solution, but in the long run it may be far more stabilizing than full secession of the entire province, which satisfies the Kosovo Albanians now but provides enduring grist for the mill of Serbian revengism.


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 09:23:47 AM EST
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Even though it's my understanding that young people in Serbia today are less preoccupied with Kosovo than the oldies, these things wax and wane.
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I wouldn't bet on that. They temporarily lost their interest because it's obvious nothing can be done at the moment. Milosevic was stupid enough to bet on a losing card but generally Serbs are not. That's why people were so divided about him and his approach. I'll tell you, most of the young Serbs never have visited Kosovo and wouldn't care to live there but will be ready to die for it. It's very hard to explain...strange sort of people we are...they'll wait for right moment. They are used to waiting during history...How do you think they managed to make Yugoslavia (to the hell with it!)? Unfortunately the price they paid was always too high and paid by blood.

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But one possibility that no one in the West wants to consider is partition,
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At one point I used to believe that would be solution...I don't really know...but as you said it's not on the table at this point.
Serbs are at hard place generally nowadays everywhere but things tend to change drastically during history... empires come and go...people are still there. Neither Serbs or Albanians or Croats or others will go anywhere...This is not a first time for us to have drastically changed borders...Most of the people there has been born in one state and died in another...There is no such a thing as last battle on Balkan...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 11:03:08 AM EST
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I am reminded of a compatriot who, in conversation with Serbs, mentioned the areas of Jemtland and Herjedalen which Norway lost to Sweden in 1645, after the Danish king then ruling Norway had lost a war (as Danes always do).

"And what are you planning to do about that?" asked the Serbs.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 03:25:29 PM EST
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Hahaha...that's exactly kind of mind frame I am talking about. We never forget...all though we also do not forget good things that others have done for us during history and we are ready to endure a lot of bad when it comes from someone who we consider a "friend"...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 09:02:18 PM EST
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I would agree with that.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins
by EricC on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 07:45:54 PM EST
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Oh and by the way, this was an exceptionally balanced and accurate description of the Kosovo issue. Possibly one of the best available anywhere... Impressive, Sirroco, bravo!

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 10:34:59 AM EST
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Oops! The above was misplaced threadwise... Sorry!

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 10:37:44 AM EST
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by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 11:22:34 AM EST
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vbo: Let me say that I do have personal friends who are Serbs and was shocked and disgusted at the NATO military intervention, which, quite predictably and apart from murder and the destruction of Serbian infrastructure, has guaranteed that Kosovo will for the forseeable future reaman an explosive nationalist issue, at the heart of the Balkans, ready to reignite, or trigger a nearby explosion, at the first chance. Incidentally, I am afraid that the aftermath of this series of Serb humiliations, will lead inexorably to the Radicals gaining power in Serbia, sooner or later, bythemselves or with equally scary allies.

However, having said all that, it seems that the idea that Kosovo is, was and should always remain Serb is flawed and unrealistic. Serbs voted with their feet over the past half-century, creating a reality on the ground that is now (and in the future will be even more) leading to permanent partition of one form or another. The idea that Albanians are "guests" in Kosovo is both unhistorical and unrealistic. Not only because Albanian speaking people have lived in the area for ages - and certainly before the "Slavic invasions", but also because in point of fact there is no way that in an area fiercely contested by opposing nationalisms, the majoritarian nationality will not tend to have the upper hand...

Although I am very much against the recognition of an independent Kosovo as things stand (being an example of victorious militancy, this sets a bad example in an area still quite teeming with minorities which are local majorities), it seems unlikely that in the long term Kosovo will be in any meaningful way Serb, apart from a small minority perhaps living there (or in a partitioned province). This is a fact. The only way it can be reversed is by a large scale military operation that will expel most of the current inhabitants and settle a new population. This would be a. impractical, b. unlikely and c. morally repugnant.

I tend to think that the least problematic of current options would be a large scale concerted and consensual redrawing of borders in the Balkans, affirming minority rights, repatriation of refugees and granting autonomous status to various population groups (as stated briefly here). The EU train (if it ever arrives) is still pretty far off, don't wait for it to arrive too soon, because you'll be disappointed.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 10:31:33 AM EST
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by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 11:23:44 AM EST
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You are right in everything you said but if you know Serbs you'll know that we are hardly rational people.
And with Kosovo emotions are high. I personally visited Kosovo once in my entire life and that one time I was actually forced to go there because my husband was in the army (conscript). Being from Belgrade, I felt like I am not in my own country (more like Middle east)  and I did not feel safe at all ( it was 1977) or welcomed in any way. I have no any ties with Kosovo but even I feel it is ours...
You are perfectly right, it's not realistic but...as I said Serbs are used to waiting for historical chances keeping the idea alive through generations.
" C'erac'emo se josh"...is untranslatable and means something like "we'll storm each other yet again".
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I tend to think that the least problematic of current options would be a large scale concerted and consensual redrawing of borders in the Balkans, affirming minority rights, repatriation of refugees and granting autonomous status to various population groups (as stated briefly here).
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Oh my friend this is a real pipedream ...never happened in history...never ever ...and will not happen.

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The EU train (if it ever arrives) is still pretty far off; don't wait for it to arrive too soon, because you'll be disappointed.
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As for me personally I don't even believe EU will survive long enough to see anybody really benefit from it but westerners ...but if it somehow manage to become anything apart from economic union there is no chance that they can afford to have such big "hole" at such a strategic place...so count Serbs in. Informally they are in even today in many ways (I don't think I even like it, but I am pretty far away to have right to complain).
With independence of Kosovo, Europe is going to definitely open Pandora's Box...With provocation of Balkan wars and partition of Yugoslavia Europe and USA already opened it slightly. Don't forget that these are prosperous times for EU , USA but they can't last for ever without crises...and for this kinds of matters one's life time is to short...Who would have tell that in my life time I'll see collapse of USSR and eastern block ? Or Germans and Japanese after WWII being not just partners but "in bed" together with USA and Western Europe...I would never bet in politic...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 11:10:08 AM EST
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