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Your open constant cynicism

What the fuck are you talking about? The only cynicism people show here is towards the sold-out media whores who ply the wares of neo-lib corporate capitalism and American imperialism to the entire listening world. What's your Bullshit Bingo, then, if it's not cynicism?

Oh, you mean we joke with each other? Wow.

And what's this shit about elitism? No, I do not like Fast Food and consider it an imposition of the corporate capitalist world on the poorer majority of citizens. Don't you fucking call me an elitist for that.

And what's this writing a bilious goodbye-cruel-world diary then coming around with the invitations to Brussels?

So we are just a bunch of individuals already spending more time than we can afford working towards an aim of intervening in some way (our aims are not even yet clearly defined -- but we're not going to take yours as a quick default solution, sorry, we're going to take the time it takes); meanwhile you're a paid party operative and you have connections we don't have. Stop being so fucking arrogant about it.

It would be a real pity not to see your comments here in the future. But if they have to be paid for with the kind of crap you wrote above, then (though I insist I would personally feel the loss) perhaps you should do as you say and go.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 04:37:05 AM EST
 I subscribe to all of the above by afew with this sole exception, noted:

  "...perhaps you should do as you say and go. "

  I don't really think you're expecting pay for your time here so my view is that, really, you ought to stick around and contribute as much as you can and want to; and when your posts don't draw the attention and the reaction they deserve, try, try again and try not to take it too personally.

 I have a lot of respect for most of what you write.

  To accuse people here of cynicism is one of the most outrageously funny and absurd allegations I've seen in quite a while.

  You think about it a moment: we come here, we debate, we take each other seriously when no one else beyond our personal circle of associates does, we care about the political life of the society in which we live--care about it so much that we spend hours reading, considering, writing, arguing and thinking some more.

   If that qualifies as what cynical people do, then I'm a cocked hat!

  The high-muckety-mucks you have the "privilege" to frequent--they're principals in "We'll fuck up the world for fun and profit, Inc."  so, if you can influence them, then please, by all means, do so.  But I have no interest or intention in lending any of my all-too-tiny support to their efforts.

  I'm a four-star outsider because among other things, I refuse the price of admission to the club even if an entry were possible, which it clearly isn't.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 10:04:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
we care about the political life of the society in which we live

And of societies in which we don't live, too.

By the way, if there were a "desillusioned cynicist (rabid dog on the beach)" competition here on ET, some of Ritter's comments would rank quite high, possibly even taking top spot.

So I strongly disagree with Trond Ove: if this is the stick, I'll let you guess where Ritter can stick his carrot. [Fortunately Oct 10 is 120 days away, so I'll have time to forget this idiocy. Unfortunately I don't think I'll feel like taking 2 days of vacation to go to Brussels in the autumn and schmooze with two ambassadors.]

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 10:12:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"...perhaps you should do as you say and go. "

is the part of my comment I most disagree with myself.

I don't want Ritter to go!!

But I'd love Ritter to sort out some of his contradictions (insofar as they impact us via his comments and suggestions).

What are you, Ritter, a free-electron street-fighting man, or an insider-schmoozer in the corridors of power?

You know, I think a lot of us here don't easily engage in discussion on your comments because you so often pose as one or the other or both of the above. And you do so with a certain dose of self-righteousness.

A lot of us here want to move on to a phase of activism. First we want to get the ideas right, the facts (as far as they can be discerned) right, the metrics (possibly/probably new ones) right. That takes time -- all the more that we don't have much and are not paid to do this full time.

A little indulgence, a little understanding?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 10:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 I goofed in over-looking one other point on which I differ with afew--

  In general, I don't see any good use in this forum for the expression,

   "What the fuck are you talking about?"

  It implies that he or she to whom its addressed doesn't know what they're talking about.  That might be the case, but even if so, I don't understand the need to express that in such an insulting fashion.

  I'd love to see this expression disappear from our dialogues.  I don't think anyone here deserves it.

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 11:31:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What the fuck are you talking about?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 11:51:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jolly good, I say.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 11:54:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

 "When angry, count to ten; when very angry, swear!" -- Mark Twain

 I swear, swearing has its place.  How can we adequately discuss the Bush administration without resort to some expletives un-deleted?

  That said, I'm for restraint and avoidance of the gratuitous use of such phrases.  Use all the swear words you like, just please, please, please don't ask me "WTFAYTA?" unless you want me to tell you in like terms, of course!  

 ;^)

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't being formulaic. I very rarely use this expression, and its use here was not gratuitous. I really do not think Ritter knows what he's talking about re: cynicism.

As for the swearing, I think Ritter's comments were offensive and plain wrong, and fully deserved a couple of fucks and shits.

If Ritter would care to tell us quite what he was hoping to communicate by way of criticism, we might then have a civilized discussion.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, we're having a civilised discussion all right, it's just that Ritter's idea of useful input seems to be "you can come play in my yard on October 10, two very important kids will be there, too!".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just trying to reformulate the incriminated expression... ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:24:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really do not think Ritter knows what he's talking about re: cynicism.

I'm going into even more risk than Trond Ove and claim that you don't know what he's talking about. Methinks Migeru in this thread is Exhibit A. Those who do try doing activism at EU level in practice are ridiculed from an armchair, lots of talk of smoozing and party soldiers, and any possibility to get in touch with the EU people is dismissed as worthless in advance. We may disagree on a lot with Ritter, and say repeating Dutch stereotypes is not the best rhetoric to forge EU activism, but Ritter at least tries in practice what we only talked about.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 02:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At every turn in my life I've been involved. I've been in student government in Madrid and in California, both in elected and appointed positions. I have represented Spanish physics students internationally, I have represented international students at the US federal level. I have created the position of International Students Affairs Officer at my US campus, I have made myself a sore thumb for my department defending teaching assistants and students, I have represented my campus at the state level. I have attended community forums in my London ward, I have been verbally abused (and have had some in my group physically abused) for demonstrating against the Iraq war in California. I have been one of a few thousand people to March under the pouring rain on March 15, 2003 in LA (much fewer people, but a more satisfying experience), I have borne witness to a friend in need at a labour relations hearing at my university campus.

You and Ritter have NO FUCKING CLUE what you are talking about.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 04:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well this thread is going well, isn't it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 04:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not interested in discussing my "credentials" or anyone's and I feel personally violated by the need to present them to respond to understated accusations and questioning of character from DoDo and Ritter. Ritter's diary is trollish and insulting.

So there.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 04:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 05:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's because you're petit bourgeois.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 08:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 02:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I could make a general suggestion, it might be more helpful if people could resist the temptation to attack or disparage people for their chosen forms of activism.

Or to put that another way: attacking the anarchist for being leery of centralised power is a bit silly.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 05:01:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Attack schmattack.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 05:16:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only those whom you appreciate can hurt you, DoDo. You hurt, but maybe you won't in the future.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 05:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's been par for the course since the first international.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 06:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A needlessly offensive comment, DoDo. Ritter backed his cynicism remark with only "snark snark snark", and I replied to that. You seem to see shadowy meanings that fit your own agenda, and your projection of your thoughts into finger-pointing at one individual is unpleasant and, imho, unjustified.

I don't see anywhere where you have retracted or apologized. A pity.

My whole point, picked up in other terms again later, is that Ritter criticizes this entire community for "non-activism" when he doesn't really make clear to us what "activism", in his view, should consist of: is it street-level leftist action, or is it back-door passes to meet powerful people who can "further our ideas"? He has often held out invitations etc, but never entered into truly brass-tacks discussions about what would be involved.

As for his being a party member, I'm sorry but I do not consider people who join a party as more virtuous than those who prefer not to.

So I don't just disagree with you, I object to your comment and in particular its personal attack on Migeru.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 02:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[Ritter] has often held out invitations etc, but never entered into truly brass-tacks discussions about what would be involved.
Oh, he has, and for some reason [and despite having just joined ET] I wound up as the point-man forwarding his e-mails to "the group" and digesting our discussions back to him. In the end, we balked and I had to tell him "we'll be ready when we're ready". But this all happened off the blog.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 02:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you know, I wasn't party to that exchange.

What I meant by "brass-tacks discussion" was that I haven't seen Ritter, here on ET, explain and defend his vison of what activism under the auspices of a major centre-left party and by means of meeting well-placed people in Brussels might be.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 03:08:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You'll understand I'm not going to spill his e-mails in a diary... I already quoted him briefly once and I felt filthy about e-mail to blog crossover.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 03:15:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand. But my point that Ritter has never openly discussed his brand of activism here -- meaning the Brussels variety -- stands. I'm not jeering at it, I just don't know what it entails and will not entertain thoughts of joining it until I do.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 07:34:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

 ;^)

   YKWTFIATA ! Right?

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
IFWKWTFYATAYF!

:):):)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:22:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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