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Jolly good, I say.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 11:54:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

 "When angry, count to ten; when very angry, swear!" -- Mark Twain

 I swear, swearing has its place.  How can we adequately discuss the Bush administration without resort to some expletives un-deleted?

  That said, I'm for restraint and avoidance of the gratuitous use of such phrases.  Use all the swear words you like, just please, please, please don't ask me "WTFAYTA?" unless you want me to tell you in like terms, of course!  

 ;^)

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't being formulaic. I very rarely use this expression, and its use here was not gratuitous. I really do not think Ritter knows what he's talking about re: cynicism.

As for the swearing, I think Ritter's comments were offensive and plain wrong, and fully deserved a couple of fucks and shits.

If Ritter would care to tell us quite what he was hoping to communicate by way of criticism, we might then have a civilized discussion.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, we're having a civilised discussion all right, it's just that Ritter's idea of useful input seems to be "you can come play in my yard on October 10, two very important kids will be there, too!".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just trying to reformulate the incriminated expression... ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 12:24:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really do not think Ritter knows what he's talking about re: cynicism.

I'm going into even more risk than Trond Ove and claim that you don't know what he's talking about. Methinks Migeru in this thread is Exhibit A. Those who do try doing activism at EU level in practice are ridiculed from an armchair, lots of talk of smoozing and party soldiers, and any possibility to get in touch with the EU people is dismissed as worthless in advance. We may disagree on a lot with Ritter, and say repeating Dutch stereotypes is not the best rhetoric to forge EU activism, but Ritter at least tries in practice what we only talked about.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 02:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At every turn in my life I've been involved. I've been in student government in Madrid and in California, both in elected and appointed positions. I have represented Spanish physics students internationally, I have represented international students at the US federal level. I have created the position of International Students Affairs Officer at my US campus, I have made myself a sore thumb for my department defending teaching assistants and students, I have represented my campus at the state level. I have attended community forums in my London ward, I have been verbally abused (and have had some in my group physically abused) for demonstrating against the Iraq war in California. I have been one of a few thousand people to March under the pouring rain on March 15, 2003 in LA (much fewer people, but a more satisfying experience), I have borne witness to a friend in need at a labour relations hearing at my university campus.

You and Ritter have NO FUCKING CLUE what you are talking about.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 04:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well this thread is going well, isn't it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 04:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not interested in discussing my "credentials" or anyone's and I feel personally violated by the need to present them to respond to understated accusations and questioning of character from DoDo and Ritter. Ritter's diary is trollish and insulting.

So there.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 04:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 05:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's because you're petit bourgeois.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 08:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 02:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I could make a general suggestion, it might be more helpful if people could resist the temptation to attack or disparage people for their chosen forms of activism.

Or to put that another way: attacking the anarchist for being leery of centralised power is a bit silly.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 05:01:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Attack schmattack.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 05:16:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only those whom you appreciate can hurt you, DoDo. You hurt, but maybe you won't in the future.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 05:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's been par for the course since the first international.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 06:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A needlessly offensive comment, DoDo. Ritter backed his cynicism remark with only "snark snark snark", and I replied to that. You seem to see shadowy meanings that fit your own agenda, and your projection of your thoughts into finger-pointing at one individual is unpleasant and, imho, unjustified.

I don't see anywhere where you have retracted or apologized. A pity.

My whole point, picked up in other terms again later, is that Ritter criticizes this entire community for "non-activism" when he doesn't really make clear to us what "activism", in his view, should consist of: is it street-level leftist action, or is it back-door passes to meet powerful people who can "further our ideas"? He has often held out invitations etc, but never entered into truly brass-tacks discussions about what would be involved.

As for his being a party member, I'm sorry but I do not consider people who join a party as more virtuous than those who prefer not to.

So I don't just disagree with you, I object to your comment and in particular its personal attack on Migeru.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 02:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[Ritter] has often held out invitations etc, but never entered into truly brass-tacks discussions about what would be involved.
Oh, he has, and for some reason [and despite having just joined ET] I wound up as the point-man forwarding his e-mails to "the group" and digesting our discussions back to him. In the end, we balked and I had to tell him "we'll be ready when we're ready". But this all happened off the blog.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 02:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you know, I wasn't party to that exchange.

What I meant by "brass-tacks discussion" was that I haven't seen Ritter, here on ET, explain and defend his vison of what activism under the auspices of a major centre-left party and by means of meeting well-placed people in Brussels might be.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 03:08:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You'll understand I'm not going to spill his e-mails in a diary... I already quoted him briefly once and I felt filthy about e-mail to blog crossover.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 03:15:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand. But my point that Ritter has never openly discussed his brand of activism here -- meaning the Brussels variety -- stands. I'm not jeering at it, I just don't know what it entails and will not entertain thoughts of joining it until I do.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 07:34:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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