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I filled out the questionnaire myself (I posted it here). While doing so, I thought some questions may be interpreted differently from how you did.

I think question 6 is about another potential gas cutoff by Russia, and possibly the fears of Poland and the Baltics, not Britain. Britain has a long-term, not a "shorter-term emergency" problem.

Regarding question 9, now I might not know well the nuances of the English language, but to me it reads as if "balance between" means how much weight one wants to give each, which in my mind includes giving one a value of zero. Regarding demand reduction, I think it does appear with a different wording in question 7.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 1st, 2006 at 05:13:04 PM EST
Dang, I forgot to give an email addy in the questionnaire... quite some consultation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Aug 1st, 2006 at 05:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Short-term-emergency I interpret as protecting people from temporary market disruptions.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 1st, 2006 at 05:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Each of us is free to do as s/he thinks fit. Personally, I think this is not only a badly-framed and manipulative questionnaire, but that it should not even serve as a general model for how to consult EU citizens and stakeholders. For that reason, I won't be filling it in as an individual citizen, but I hope we'll get together some kind of collective protest document.

As to Q.6, of course other emergencies may be considered. However, as Jérôme has pointed out a number of times, there is strong British pressure on the point of solving UK gas supply problems (which are due to lack of foresight) by means of regulation obliging other MSs to hand over their stocks. My feeling is that the question has been influenced by the British agenda, that the Commission appears to have adopted as likely policy. (It's in the GP, pp.8-9).

The UK's problem is long-term if you look at it in the long term. When UK gas prices spike in winter and they want the neighbours to send over gas from their stocks, it's a short-term problem. And it's particularly teeth-grinding when the country that just does not stop giving us all lessons in free-market ideology is the first to call for legislative constraint when it suits it.

Btw, see Nick Oz's comment on UK gas supply mismanagement.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 02:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't choose not to fill out the questionnaire: I recoiled in horror after Q2. I commend you for your courage and stamina which you demonstrated here going well beyond the call of duty.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 02:14:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My intention was to clear the darn thing out of our way. If the Commission will only accept participation in the Consultation by means of this poll-cum-plebiscite, then we skip the Consultation and tell the Commission why. Imho.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 02:24:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But in my opinion, that would only serve them as they wished. If they only accept participation by means of this poll-cum-plebiscite, let's 'mis-use' it to annoy them with protestations. If we don't, they'll only get the answers playing by their rules. I still hold both tracks should be ridden on.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 07:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If they tell us the "poll" is the only way, then let's by all means use it as you say.

We have until 24 September to do that. First we could pool together our objections to the method and the manner of this Consultation.

I'd like some help with other languages: I think the French questionnaire is badly translated, and I'd like to know what the other translations are like.

Could you (and anyone else) take a look at the version in their language or a language they're proficient in?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 07:32:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, I'll do a rundown once I get home (sometime after 17h CEST).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 08:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I took a first look at the Hungarian vs. English versions. The first impression is that the translator didn't really knew the corresponding Hungarian technical expressions (and was guessing).

Question 3 has some silly errors: it turned "investments in infrastructure and generation capacity" into something like "investments in infrastructural and generation capacity"; and "Increase the share of EU financial support" was translated by dropping "the share of".

Regarding question 4, I ask a question does 'competitive' there have the meaning "competition-based" (e.g. marketised)? If yes, another minor mistranslation. In the choices, methinks significant omission: from "Focus on cost effective savings of energy", cost-effective is dropped. In "Decrease dependency on imported fuels", 'imported fuels' becomes 'imports' (that would include electricity, but I don't see this difference as a big problem).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 09:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first impression is that the translator didn't really knew the corresponding Hungarian technical expressions (and was guessing).

Bingo, same impression as the French version gave me. Whereas the Eng-lang questionnaire echoes the Eng-lang Green Paper, the French questionnaire didn't make use of the competent GP translation...

Q4 : I take "competitive" to mean "competition-based", rather than "in competition with one another". But the word is thrown around loosely by the GP drafters:

A truly competitive single European electricity and gas market would bring down prices, improve security of supply, and boost competitiveness. (p.5)

(Exploding heads please queue up, the nurse will see you shortly).

"Cost-effective" is important, it's really the core of that response: only do energy savings that come through cost-effectiveness studies well. (Imagine wizened gnomes in mountain hideout counting piles of ancient coins while outside the planet roasts).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 09:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
English vs. Hungarian versions, continued.

Question 6: this is the worst change so far. Above all in the second option ("Develop smart electricity networks, demand management and distributed energy generation, bearing in mind their potential to help at times of sudden shortage"):  First, the sentence has been turned around, with the original second sub-sentence changed to something like: "At times of sudden shortage, it could help to...". Second, two really bad cases of not knowing technical expressions: 'demand management' became something that can also be read as "income farming", and 'distributed energy generation' tunred into "divided energy generation"... In the fourth option, "likely shortfalls" turns into "foreseeable shortfalls", not insignificant.

Question 7, first option about "a solidarity mechanism to assist a Member State facing difficulties following disruptions of its energy supplies under emergency circumstances": emergency circumstances is dropped, plus loose wording: facing difficulties becomes "gets in trouble". Third option, 'emergency demand restraint' is horribly mistranslated, something like "keeping emergency income in bounds"... Fourth option, "early notice" becomes "early forecast"...

Question 8: nuance cut, "Europe, taken as a whole, promotes the diversification of energy supplies" becomes something like "Europe's energy supplies become more diverse".

I already wrote about question 9.

Question 12: "Disposal of nuclear waste" becomes "management of nuclear waste" (which is NOT the same!)

Question 14, last option, another horrible mistranslation totally changes the meaning: "Member States should be able to rely on at least three different supply sources" becomes something like "the Member States must purchase from at least three sources"...

(Next, I'll look at the German version.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Aug 3rd, 2006 at 06:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
English vs. German versions: overall, much much better. Only three little problems with wording:

Question 6, sixth option: 'emergency disruption' becomes 'unforeseen disruption'.

Question 9, first option: " widest possible international actions" becomes "weitestreichenden internationalen Aktionen", I think should have been "weitestreichend internationalen Maßnahmen" (the first is about actions with the widest reach, the second about widest participation in the action, where in my reading the original English means the latter).

Question 12: 'Smart electricity networks' is translated as "Ausgeklügelte Elektrizitätsnetzwerke", instead of "Intelligente Elektrizitätsnetzwerke" (the first does mean smart, but not in place in this context, it has a meaning roughly like "well-thought-out")

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Aug 3rd, 2006 at 06:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So I misunderstood you: you'd hold out the hope that they would change the form of the consultation if we protest in time?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 08:01:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I doubt they would now change the questionnaire. Though, a strong protest on the language issue might get some change -- you know, they might pull the "please write in English" bit from the web page.

What we could ask for is that people be given the right to send in freely-written contributions, as with the Biofuels Consultation.

Even if they don't, we should work on an energy platform for Europe and communicate it to Piebalgs and all concerned with as much publicity as possible.

In other words, if the Consultation is usable, let's use it. But in any case let's do the energy platform.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 08:14:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and echoing kcurie, a reference to (y)our past participation in the Biofueld Consultation should be doubly beneficial: it will give them the picture that the EU already 'recognises us', and we could tell them that "the EU could do better in this other case".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 08:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the word "balance", see the GP, Section 1: ...BALANCING SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT, COMPETITIVENESS AND SECURITY OF SUPPLY.

Key sentence (p.4):

Sustainable, competitive and secure energy is one of the basic pillars of our daily life.

I don't think the phrasing of Q.9 invites us to rate these principles, let alone reduce one of them to zero -- and I doubt many people will understand it in that way. Balance implies equilibrium implies equal weight. If they meant what you thought, I think they'd have said "mix".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 03:03:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Btw, you can look at the German and Hungarian forms and see how they translated it.

The French version is clumsy and doesn't appear to me to have been translated by a native French speaker. Q.9 isn't even a proper sentence:

9. Comment une stratégie européenne commune de l'énergie peut-elle aborder au mieux le changement climatique, l'équilibre entre les objectifs de protection de l'environnement, la compétitivité et la sécurité de l'approvisionnement?

"balancing" in the English version is a verb, in the French they turn it into the noun "équilibre", direct object of "aborder" (= "address"). So the French retranslated would read:

How can a common European energy strategy best address climate change, the balance between ... etc

N'importe quoi.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 03:26:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is sad: I thought the EU had 1) a corps of translators; 2) native speakers of most EU languages in every department.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 03:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU has translators, but aimed primarily at Council and Parliament meetings and translating legislation. As we know from Wallström's blog, the Commission (at least the current Barroso one) has its own agenda...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 07:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
D'oh!

Hungarian version:

...a környezetvédelem, a versenyképesség és a biztonságos ellátás szempontjainak együttes figyelembevételével...

The 'balancing' or some equivalent is totally missing, it speaks about the "joint consideration of the viewpoints of ..." -- this is ever worse than your reading of the English version.

German version:

...die Ziele des Umweltschutzes, der Wettbewerbsfähigkeit und der Versorgungssicherheit in der Waage halten?

It says to put on the scales, which is in line with your interpretation of the English version.

So I submit this one, it's as bad as the rest I haven't disputed.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 07:26:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Equilibrium doesn't imply equal weight, it implies appropriate weights.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 03:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew you were going to pick me up on that! I still maintain that "balancing" as they use it will be read by the vast majority of people as implying equal weight to be given to each term.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 03:44:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"balancing" is one of those words that are thrown in because they sound nice, not because they mean anything any longer, like "solidarity", "sustainable"...

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 03:46:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, but the GP does take those three objectives as its sound-bite basis (the title of the GP is A European Strategy for Sustainable, Competitive, and Secure Energy).

I just looked at the French version of the GP, and the meaning of "balancing" (if it means anything!) obviously gave the translator a problem, since at one point it's translated as trouvant l'équilibre (finding the balance, which suggests work to do assigning relative importance to the parts), at another assurant l'équilibre, (ensuring the balance, which suggests it's been found).

The French version of the GP is well-written and competent. The fr questionnaire may have been done by a native speaker, but I doubt it. Surely not by a professional translator, and not even by someone conversant with the GP, from which whole expressions could have been profitably lifted.

I get (more and more) the impression of a cheap PR operation overseen by ideological kommissars.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 04:35:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What they don't realize is that, by saying "balancing" they implicitly acknowledge that sustainability, competitivity and security are competing goals.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 05:22:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's because the only goal is competition.

Everything good happens because of competition. The Invisible Hand will reach down from the data sky and miraculously adjust all inputs and outputs, and soothe all fiscal wrongs.

People here should understand that by now.

With competition sustainability will happen naturally, after most of the infrastructure has crumbled and most of the population has died.

The markets always win in the end.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 08:44:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People here should understand that by now.

So what are we to do? Is there anything we can do other than bitch and moan?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 08:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
qv my other comment.

It's an ideological problem and it needs an ideological solution. Currently there's only one narrative in media space, and things won't get better until it has a competitor.

The problem is also that market-think is taught as gospel (sic) on MBA courses and among economists. The answer has to be to get a competing narrative into the collective headspace, not just within the media but also within academia too.

When was the last time you saw a best selling book, or a magazine or newspaper feature questioning the foundations of marketism?

You have to see this for what it is - which is almost a Soviet-style lock down on public discussion of alternatives to The Party. A strong and united blitz of authoritative public statements criticising the Market Position is the only thing that can make a difference.

Old-style street theatre protest is useless, and occasional LTEs won't do more than chip away at the edifice. Linking sympathetic MEPs with intellectual dissent and alternative business interests may be the only approach that has any chance of working.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 09:51:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is also that market-think is taught as gospel (sic) on MBA courses and among economists.

You know, I'm reading "the gospel" (Smith, Ricardo, Mills, Keynes so far) and it doesn't look like the conventional wisdom. Where does the marketista ideology actually come from?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 10:45:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's certainly not in Hayek's Road to Serfdom either. Maybe his other book and writings ... though he'd have to explicitly contradict himself.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 10:52:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, looking at Wikiquote it seems likely that as his paranoia about totalitarianism advanced so did his fundamentalism about "freedom". He's credited with influencing both Thatcher's and Reagan's little experiments.

The Constitution of Liberty is due to be republished in September. Maybe their secrets will be found there.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 11:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the name of the game is Anarcho-capitalism.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 11:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe not, exactly:

One social structure that is not permissible under anarcho-capitalism is one that attempts to claim greater sovereignty than the individuals that form it. The state is a prime example, but another is the modern corporation -- defined as a legal entity that exists under a different legal code than individuals as a means to shelter the individuals who own and run the corporation from possible legal consequences of acts by the corporation. It is worth noting that Rothbard allows a narrower definition of a corporation: "Corporations are not at all monopolistic privileges; they are free associations of individuals pooling their capital. On the purely free market, such men would simply announce to their creditors that their liability is limited to the capital specifically invested in the corporation ...."[9] However, this is a very narrow definition that only shelters owners from debt by creditors that specifically agree to the arrangement; it also does not shelter other liability, such as from malfeasance or other wrongdoing.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 11:17:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Minarchism, maybe?
Prominent minarchists include Benjamin Constant, Herbert Spencer, Leonard Read, Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, James M. Buchanan, Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, John Hospers, Robert Nozick, George Reisman.


Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 11:29:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Government should be just big enough to do what we want it to do."
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 11:33:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could agree with that.

For me, it becomes a debate between left libertarianism and right libertarianism. Neither is free of the risk of degenerating into authoritarian versions in practice.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 11:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a historical diary waiting to be written here about how the oil-bust economic melt-down of the 70s combined with what many saw as excessive union power produced a right-wing freebooting capitalist-fundamentalist backlash.

Specifically - Thatcher and Reagan and their peculiar ideas about deregulation.

Once the media were deregulated, it was easy for Murdoch to start spreading his poison and acting as king maker, and for other corporate interests to follow suit. In the UK the miners' strike and the move to Wapping were two big battles in the subsequent class war.

There's also been a lot of influence in the US from frankly wacko billionaires such as Scaife and his Scaife Foundations which have effectively treated US government as a personal for-profit organisation.

There are two levels here. At the Scaife level it's deliberate manipulation of opinion and policy for personal gain. At the lower level there are numerous emotionally stunted chancers and wannabes who love the greed-is-good amorality of freebooting capitalism, and feel that paying taxes is a personal insult.

Under those two levels there's a majority of people who want a quiet life without lethal but stupid panto-wars and crusades, and with a reasonable standard of living offering basics such as education and health care.

The deeper social problem is that the most violently aggressive billionaires and promoters of corporate excellence really do have serious psychological problems. Scaife, Coors and Bush are all former or current alcoholics, and cocaine is the drug of choice among the executive class - so much so that it's considered part of the scenery.

Sane policies are impossible while these people continue to have any significant social influence.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 2nd, 2006 at 01:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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