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Guys, why do you focus again on the United States and their wrongdoings???
This is a European forum...

The suspects in the failed train bombing in Germany mentioned the Mohammed cartoons as their (main) motivation.

The 9/11 pilots lived in Europe for several years...

The London bombers had some issues with the British.

etc. etc

Ergo:

  1. Terrorism is not just a threat for the US, but for Europe as well, but you don't discuss that.
  2. Terrorism is also motivated by what is taking place in Europe. The US might be doing a better of job of integrating immigrants.

What is and what should Europe doing at home and in the Middle East to decrease terrrorism?

How do we decrease the number of terrorist recruits and their supporters and the motivation and ideology to engage in terrorism?

How's the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership doing? How to reinvigorate it?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 05:51:49 AM EST
What should be done?

End the War on Terrorism and the War of Civil Liberties going on under its cover. Treat terrorism as a crime issue as Europe has always done before the neo-cons came about. And address the political issues underlying it, politically.

Where did the Mohammed Cartoons come from? A Danish "culture editor" who is a fan of Richard Perle.

The 9/11 pilots also lived in the US for several years...

The London bombers has issues with British foreign policy going along with American post-9/11 policy.

Europe is trying to engage everyone in the Middle East instead of lecturing countries and peoples about values and democracy, endorsing war and occupation, or getting involved in an escalation of diplomatic snubs. The biggests recent failure of European Middle-East policy was getting dragged into an embargo of the Palestinian Authority's democratically elected government.

We stop bombing them. We stop supporting undemocratic regimes that suppress them. We stop making islamism the only political outlet people in the Middle East have left.

There is also the Alliance of Civilisations sponsored by Annan, Erdogan and Zapatero.

How's the Euromediterranean Partnership doing? I don't really know, I should read everything under that link.

The fact is, the US' middle-east policy is a big part of the problem. What is the Eu doing about it? Rolling over, containment, maybe stalling with the Iranians so Bush doesn't have a clear opening for another war.

Oh, and the EU is providing the bulk of the new UNIFIL.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and the EU is providing the bulk of the new UNIFIL.

Will UNIFIL reduce the risk of terrorism to Europe?
I doubt it. DoDo makes a good point on how peacekeeping looks from the ground.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:52:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you the same person who often asks why the EU doesn't commit troops to Darfur?

I think UNIFIL is more likely to piss off Israel then the Lebanese. It already has.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:55:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, not (yet) pissing off, but read this:

According to Alexander Ivanko, spokesman for the UN interim force in Lebanon (Unifil), there have been more than 100 recorded ceasefire violations by Israeli forces in the last month. These have been mostly over-flights and incursions by tanks, troops and bulldozers. Mr Ivanko said that 24 Lebanese civilians - including four men from Aita al-Shaab - had been detained at gunpoint by Israeli troops. All were later released.

In addition to the incursions, there have also been a number of shooting incidents - described by the residents of Aita al-Shaab as "intimidation fire".

...Talk of the UN met with a similar lack of enthusiasm. "We don't know them and they don't know us - so how can their be any real trust between us? They will not stand against the Israelis; they are Europeans that are coming now," said Kalamia. Villagers had seen UN troops roll through the village without stopping a few days earlier. "They have come and gone before, it's the same old story. Whether they're here or not, it doesn't make any difference to us," said Fatmeh Srour.

If UNIFIL would block IDF tank incursions, that would indeed constitute a move lessening the terrorism threat, by changing perceptions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re your first sentence: Please, read my atlanticreview diaries again.
Re your second sentence: So far it was the other way around. Israel is happy to have basically NATO babysitters at its borders. Let me write a new diary about it. Otherwise we are getting too off-topic here.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We saw a couple of days ago Israel is unhappy that France and Italy will actually be deployed armoured vehicles and anti-aircraft missiles.

But I agree, this is a diversion.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:40:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where did the Mohammed Cartoons come from? A Danish "culture editor" who is a fan of Richard Perle.

You are not saying that this was a US plot, are you?

The cartoons were published in many European papers out of solidarity. And EU politicians defended the publication.

The US media (with small excpetions) did not print the cartoons. And US politicians criticized the cartoons.

On the cartoon issue: The US was the appeaser, while Europeans defended our liberties. Fine, but some papers were overly insensitive to Muslim feelings.

Please excuse the generalization based on time constraints: Many Arabs have an inferiority complex. And we in the West are to blame, because we often rub into their face: Undemocratic, few liberties, bad economy, bad science, bad technology, hardly any internationally well-known authors/musicians/sports stars etc.
They only thing they have left to feel proud of is religion. And then our papers need to make a statement about press freedom and not being cowards and appeasers and they reprint the cartoons.

So, to answer my own question about what needs to be done: Forget about democracy promotion. We don't have much credibility or expertise to do so. Let's find a way to boos self-respect in the Arab world. Avoid humiliating the Arabs.

Of course, this is very difficult. And it should not mean appeasement or ignoring human rights violations etc.
I have no clue how to make Arabs more proud and self respecting and feel less humiliated and have less of an inferiority complex etc.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:03:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where do you get this idea that Arabs have an inferiority complex? I think it is we that have a superiority complex [e.g., trying to rub it in their faces that they're inferior].

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:08:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding the Cartoon Controversy, I would have to go and dig up a bunch of links to the dozens of diaries ET published on the topic, for which I don't really have time right now. Maybe tonight. Did you read our debates?

You oversimplified it in your first comment, and so did I in my reply. The cartoons are tangential to the present discussion and I am not really interested in repeating all I said in the ET debates on the topic.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:29:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read some of those diaries.

I brought up the cartoons, because the suspects in the failed train bombing plots in Germany mentioned them as their motivation.

That's why I think it is worth looking at the long-term consequences of the cartoon uproar.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:38:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hardly any internationally well-known authors/musicians/sports stars

Well, not known to you. This is something like Robbie Williams or Kylie Minoque being megastars in Europe, but virtually unknown in the US, and US writers concluding the UK has no internationally well-known pop musicians. Your line made me recall a scene on my Franz Ferdinand DVD, in a documentary of their concert world tour: an interview towards the end of the US leg of the tour with MTV in New York. Almost all questions were silly ones like "did you came here because a you'll be famous if you are famous in the US" [the already famous boys stopped for the second to find a polite answer], "so now you'll go to Buffalo then Chicago, and what comes after your world tour is over - recording a new LP?" [it was the middle of a world tour, not a US tour].

Also, regarding books, declarations of the lack of this or that based on ignorance and not speaking Arabic is something Angry Arab regularly fumes about, for example here.

Overall, I mostly agree with your above post. In particular that Europe is part to the problem, not just a sufferer of collateral damage. On the other hand, one can't talk about these problems without talking about the US, that would be the other extreme.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 08:15:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no clue how to make Arabs more proud and self respecting and feel less humiliated and have less of an inferiority complex etc.

Stop supporting political systems that inevitably leave them poor and less developed? Just a thought.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 08:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree.

Let's stop driving our cars today.

Colman, don't get me wrong. I am not saying this to criticize you, but just try to think it through.

I look forward to Energize Europe.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:22:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You think that whoever got in power wouldn't want to sell us oil? Why?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:34:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand what this has to do with your earlier comment.

You wrote: We should stop supporting the undemocratic regimes.

I responded that we should not drive our cars then. Then we would withdraw our support of these regimes.

What do you suggest? How do you want to stop supporting those regimes?

Stop development aid for Egypt and others? Sure. What else?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stop development aid. Stop propping up unpopular regimes. Stop treating  Saudi princes as respectable world leaders. Speak against their human rights abuses and their suppression and their outrages. Let their governments fall. And above all, stop bloody interfering.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:43:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry for being explicit, but this is a silly discussion. The population of most oil-rich Muslim countries is not poor, those without oil (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan) or with major wars behind them (Iraq, Afghanistan, less so Iran) are really poor. To stop driving cars won't affect the regimes of the poor countries, and (unless oil production is throttled severely so that other customers buy less for much more) won't make the subsidized population of the oil-rich ones richer. On the other hand, stopping driving cars will help Europe to get closer to energy independence, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. (I already don't have a car.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guys, why do you focus again on the United States and their wrongdoings???

Because of what you put in focus from Fischer. Your question is directly answered by the first paragraph of the first part of my reply.

The 9/11 pilots lived in Europe for several years...

Yet they attacked the United States.

The London bombers had some issues with the British.

Namely support for the US's Iraq War.

Regarding 1): I did discuss that, and implicitely so did others. When ThatBritGuy says terrorism is nothing new in Europe, looking back just a few decades, think of the IRA, the ETA, Munich, Red Brigades and the P2 in Italy, the RAF and its "Deutscher Herbst", plane hijackings, the Paris bombings in the nineties.

Regarding 2): correct. Opposing the spread of xenophobia and Islamophobia here in Europe is also an indirect means to battle terrorism. I'm not sure this is because the US does a better job, the US does a lot of filtering after all.

What is and what should Europe doing at home and in the Middle East to decrease terrrorism?

At home: stop intimidation, stop politicians who speak of integration as (only, mostly) the immigrants' job, dialogue, promotion of cutting loose of the US in foreign policy, Orientalism-free education about the complexity of all that is bundled together under "Middle East". In the Middle East: I think nothing much of practical positive effect can be done, beyond maintaining relations and (in the worst-hit crise regions) humanitarian aid. Foreign policy should be uncoupled from the US (including a stronger line on Israel), but this won't get even close to balancing bad US influence.

Now, what about some more serious problems -- say, how do we stop small-arms trade to conflict regions?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is and what should Europe doing at home and in the Middle East to decrease terrorism?

It appears that Europe's who resonse to this is either 1) getting on the GWOT train like Blair, pointing the finger at evil terrorists or 2)to do nothing, pointing the finger at evil America.  Well, I don't see either of those things as positive or proactive when it comes to Europe's position.  It creates this messed up dynamic of picking sides between the bullies and the victimized (and both sides: Bush/Blairland and Islamic/Arab terroristland think they are the victimized).

Eventually, Europe has to deal with these things on its own terms.  They may be bound in some ways by the UN or NATO, but that should not become a handicap.  Eventually Europe has to illustrate some independence and hold its own against the corrupt members of the Un, like the US.  It's like they have this complex like a shy kid in school, filled with a sense of dread when they called on for an answer.  

Also, aside from the overwhelmingly outrageous behavior of America in the Middle East in recent years, which is probably foremost in the minds of Islamic fundamentalists, Europe actually got the ball rolling to create the current mentality of victimization in the Middle East.  Before the US was strip mining it, Europe was, and with the very best of intentions too.  

The whole idea that neither Islam, the fucked up regimes in the Middle East, or the long history of European meddling there have anything to do with the current situation, that it rests in hands of one man alone, Geroge Bush, is pretty fairy tale to tell yourself so you can sleep at night (means no scary religious terrorists, no guilt, no responsibility on your part), but it's not going to solve any problems.  You need reality for that.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 08:50:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The whole idea that neither Islam, the fucked up regimes in the Middle East, or the long history of European meddling there have anything to do with the current situation, that it rests in hands of one man alone, Geroge Bush, is pretty fairy tale to tell yourself so you can sleep at night

True, but that is also a strawman.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 08:55:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd like to expound on one thing here: the long history of European meddling.

US meddling came into the discussion for two reasons: (a) current, active meddling: you can't make any policy ignoring it; (b) historical meddling in the context of Joschka Fischer's claims about 9/11 and al-Qaida. The long history of European meddling is not directly relevant in these contexts. On the other hand, I could add that French and British (and also Italian and Spanish) colonialism wasn't the best advertisement for Western modernism in the Middle East, nor was Soviet Cold War clientism serving the promotion of democracy. Then again, the West European colonial influence was over before all the Arab modernists among both the political leaders and the opinion leaders were out. What followed was some meddling as US vassals (arming Iraq) and reckless and/or corrupt business deals (German chemical weapons factory for Lybia), which at least developed into sizeable scandals at home.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:17:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be a strawman only if poemless was claiming that Bush wasn't part of the problem.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Eventually Europe has to illustrate some independence and hold its own against the corrupt members of the Un, like the US.

True. As you said so well the other day, Europe is like the Democratic Party when it fails to form a separate position from the Repubs.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I more or less agree, and regret that so many Europeans and liberal Americans always blame Bush for everything rather than coming up with better suggestions and their own policies.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:28:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For my part, I'm incensed of talk about doing nothing in face of a big new problem when in fact police, intel, governments are doing a lot in face of a not-so-big, not-so-new problem.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:32:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For example, I mentioned the GIA bombing series in France. That wave of terror was

  1. not related to any US policies,
  2. was aimed at Europe,
  3. was successfully investigated and stopped by the French state (though with some law violations along the way to criticise),
  4. was well before 9/11.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:36:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly, but this is often ignored.

I assume France stopped this "wave of terror" by using also some dirty policies in Algeria...

Something we like to forget now.

I would not be surprised about torture etc.

Anybody remember that story about a notorious prison ("dungeon") in France? That was compared to Gitmo a couple of years ago? The EU or the UN complained about holding prisoners without trial or human rights violations, if I remember. I can't find the article on google, thus I might be wrong, but perhaps others remember the story.

France still has some of the most wide-ranging surveillance laws if I remember correctly.

Anyway, my question about defeating the beast/hive/whatever, were more about long-term measures, i.e. reducing the motivations of terrorism etc.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:19:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So what are the motivations for terrorism? Are there no relevant politica grievances (actual or perceived) that need to be addressed, or is it all to be attributed to the backwardness of Arabic/Islamic societies and their inferiority complexes?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:28:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyway, my question about defeating the beast/hive/whatever,

One of the reasons for the "hive" and "whatever" alternatives is that I and others here don't think all groups that have empleyed or employ terrorist tactics need to be "defeated." (See the IRA example Colman brought.)

were more about long-term measures, i.e. reducing the motivations of terrorism etc.

I responded to that, too. But this brings us on one hand chiefly to current US and Israeli policies (and EU relationship to the latter) which you didn't want to hear about, on the other hand to allowing Islamic parties to be elected democratically, which you don't seem to be in favour of. (A lesser part of the first is also European immigration/integration policy which I mentioned earlier.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"beast/hive/whatever" is a convenient way of glossing over my trichotomy "beast/hive/social movement".

Whatever.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Beast" was the term used by Fischer to fit his wordplay of "defeat" and "feed".

Neither he nor I used it do describe what it really is.

Neither Fischer nor I are some stupid, evil Neocons, who are unaware of....and want to advocate...

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:50:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Metaphors, narratives, memes, frames... are important in that they shape the debate by setting its context and influence what is and what is not possible to discuss without an abrupt change of context.

I personally reject the metaphor used by Fisher and the way it influences the direction of the debate.

There isn't a Fafnir for Siegfried to slay.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:54:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't it possible that the GIA wave of attacks in France, that you presume required dirty war in Algeria in order to defeat it, was blowback from France's endorsement of the coup against the FIS' election victory?

You reap what you sow.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny how almost all discussion of US policies usually come up with their  "but France was just as bad" episode...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is a matter of parallels.  Parallel form/philosophy of government (Enlightenment ideals) and parallel screwing with Muslim and Arab countries (colonialism, occupation).

You're several steps ahead of us though.  Hopefully that bodes well for America.  If France can pull it off, maybe we can too.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The global village is not big enough for the both of you...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:47:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the original topic had been US policies, I would agree with you.

I thought the original topic was what Europe did wrong and could do better. This led to a discussion about US and Israeli wrong-doings who hamper all European efforts etc.

I don't think the constant focus on the US and Israel is interesting/fair/justified. That's why I wanted to bring the discussion back to European issues.

Jerome, what's your opinion of France's counter-terrorism policies and on Algeria/FIS/GIS in particular?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:54:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is my opinion that Europe by and large acts at cross-purposes with the US and Israel in the Middle East. You disagree that is relevant/fair/justified.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU policy is wrapped up with US and Israeli policy because it has to try and contain both since they're intent on being counterproductive.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My opinion is that, all things considered, France's anti-terrorist policies were and are pretty smart - and most important, have always been under explicit rules and under the supervision of judges. There is due process, even if it has been made more favorable to the police.

There is also a lot of intelligence gathering.

I won't comment on France's Algerian policies because it's damn hard to know what's going on and I don't care enough and thus I really don't know enough.

My general position on the region is that we need to let all these countries get their Islamist governments in order to be vaccinated against them. They are seen as the only legitimate political opposition, so any election will brign them in, and the parallel experiences of Iran and Algeria show that preventing the rise of an Islamic government is ultimately more deadly to the local population (cf cival war in Algeria)and more dangerous to us (cf Algerian terrorism in France) - and that at least Iranians, if given a choice, would ditch fundamentalists now.

Further, we have to wean ourselves of oil - that will downgrade the importance of the region.

In the meantime, as stated by others, getting to a formal Israeli-Palestinian peace would solve a lot of things.

So there you go:

  • democracy - including Islamist governments
  • pushing for Near East peace
  • dropping our oil&gas use

As to terrorism, we should ignore it - or give it no more attention than bank robberies or bus accidents.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My general position on the region is that we need to let all these countries get their Islamist governments in order to be vaccinated against them.

I've created a monster!

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 05:17:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or a beast?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 05:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whatever it is, don't feed it (especially after midnight).

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 05:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you!
I am looking forward to the next Energize Europe drafts.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the original topic had been US policies, I would agree with you.

Jörg. your diary is all about US policy and how European criticism of it is misplaced, not about European policy.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:08:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny how almost all discussion of US policies usually come up with their  "but France was just as bad" episode...

Because the majority of the Europeans on this site urge Europe to break with the Atlanticist tradition in favour of a European foreign policy that seeks to contain the US. You do so on moral grounds.  Among the EU states that seem sympathetic to this approach the most important is France. Yet on purely moral grounds France is just as bad as the US, albeit with less power - for both better and worse. So us Atlanticists, on both sides of the ocean, call bullshit. Your position may be justified on realpolitik grounds, though I'd disagree, but at least there's a decent argument there.  So we'll stop bringing   up France when you stop saying that the alliance with the US is bad because the US policies are immoral. Deal?

by MarekNYC on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 02:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"is" just as bad as the US or "was" just as bad as the US?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 02:24:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
currently better, in the nineties worse, in the eighties just as bad, in the sixties better, in the fifties worse. In the next decade?
by MarekNYC on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 02:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not as bleeding heart as you suggest. My primary problem with US policies is their astonishing stupidity and counter-productiveness. It's not clear that switching party would help at all. Their unusual and brazen immorality is the icing on the cake.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:01:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the US is soooo stupid -- no matter which party is in power -- why is the US still the most powerful country that sets the international agenda?

Why are the enligtenend brainiacs running the European countries and the EU not setting the international agenda?

Why haven't they settled the Iranian dispute in the last three years, if they are so much smarter and more moral and productive than those stupid, counterproductve, immoral Americans?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that the GOP mascot?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but that's entirely coincidental.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think leaving aside the recriminations, everyone seems to agree on what the situation actually is.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if you're familiar with the history of the world for the last fifty years or so?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:38:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The history being that it is all the fault of the US and Israel?

Is that all you have to say to these questions?

If the US is soooo stupid -- no matter which party is in power -- why is the US still the most powerful country that sets the international agenda?

Why are the enligtenend brainiacs running the European countries and the EU not setting the international agenda?

Why haven't they settled the Iranian dispute in the last three years, if they are so much smarter and more moral and productive than those stupid, counterproductve, immoral Americans?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 09:15:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your question boils down to "how did we get where we are?" So see the last fifty years of world history.

Why haven't they settled the Iranian dispute in the last three years, if they are so much smarter and more moral and productive than those stupid, counterproductve, immoral Americans?

Do you have any suggestions how I could possibly answer that question while ignoring US policy? Please? I'm not allowed mention Iraq. I'm not allowed to mention US belligerence against Iran. I'm not allowed mention threats from Israel. I'm not allowed mention the effects of US-led polities on internal Iranian politics. I don't have a whole lot to work with.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 09:51:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After the Gnomemoot 0 ran its course, what was our best guess at Europe's goals and strategy regarding Iran?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 09:53:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Try to persuade Iran not to build nukes and try to stop the US attacking them.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 09:55:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So why hasn't the EU succeeded in settling the dispute after all these years?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What makes you say it hasn't succeeded? The only goal is to avoid irreversible steps (acts, not words) by the crazies on both sides. That has worked, so far.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm paraphrasing Jorg's claim.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Developing nuclear technology know how qualifies as "irreversible steps"
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be technology they're entirely entitled to under the NPT, remember? And it's not important. If Iran wants to build nukes nothing we can do will stop them. Nothing short of a massive invasion can do that, and I don't see anyone with the required forces. Only persuasion can stop them making bombs.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can bomb their entire infrastructure. Israel just did a test run of the concept.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Worked real well I heard.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:03:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, the infrastructure is destroyed, the economy ruined and that power plant is still leaking fuel oil.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU could not settle the Iran conflict, because of the bad US. Okay. But who is to blame for the EU failure to bring peace to Algeria during the ten years of civil war? Why did not the EU negotiate a peace? Is the US to blame for that as well?

Or what about the decade old conflict in the Western Sahara?

Or Northern Cyprus?

Or Bosnia? Or Kosovo?

An independent European Foreign Policy would be great. It would be great to discuss it rather than blame the US for EU failures. The EU had all the time in the world to solve the Western Sahara or Algeria conflict, if the EU would be a good negotiator/mediator. You can't blame the US for interfering here, can you?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:20:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have discussed the Algerian conflict, and you thought it was ok for Europe to tacitly or explicitly endorse the coup that led to the civil war, so don't give me  any more crap about it.

Responsibility for Western Sahara lies originally with Spain.

Northern Cyprus is a conflict in which Greece, a EU member state, is an interested party, and so it is hard for the EU to be a mediator.

As for Bosnia, Europe's failure there is responsible for the decision to create a European Common Foreign and Security Policy, which did not exist before. So, again, you can't fault Europe for not using a tool that did not exist before 1995.

Regarding Kosovo, UpstateNY has provided interesting insights into the less-than-helpful diplomacy conducted by the US. I shall dig up the links.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:05:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1.) Algeria Tacitly endorsing the coup does not mean you should not try to end the civil war that took place for ten years.

2.) "Responsibility for Western Sahara lies originally with Spain."

What are you saying?
I think it has been a humanitarian crises for decades. It is close to Europe, the EU should try to broker a solution, if Spain can't do so or is considered biased (?) for historical reasons (?) I don't know.

3.) Re Cyprus: Still, it is a conflict in our backyard. And then you got the issue of Turkish EU membership and those silly Turkish-Greek quarrels that resulted in that fighter plane crash recently. These conflicts don't appear to be sooooo difficult as Darfur/Iran/Iraq, but the EU hasn't solved them. Why?

4.) Re Bosnia: I criticize that there are still thousands of our troops in Bosnia. The EU should bring peace to Bosnia and withdraw its troops rather than babysit for decades. European papers criticize the political failures in Iraq. The political issues in Bosnia and Kosovo don't appear to be as complicated, but the EU does not make any progress.

5.) Conclusion:
Colman criticizes US failures and blames it on their stupidity; not just on Bush, another party in power would not make a difference, hes wrote.

Perhaps I exaggerate, but for me this suggests that Colman assumes that the European governments are smarter and more successful in solving conflicts, if those stupid Americans don't interfere as they do Iran. Thus I pointed to some other ongoing conflicts, which the EU should have solved. Instead of discussing those conflicts and EU shortcominings, most European newspapers and citizens discuss US failurs.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:04:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
2.) "Responsibility for Western Sahara lies originally with Spain."

What are you saying?
I think it has been a humanitarian crises for decades. It is close to Europe, the EU should try to broker a solution, if Spain can't do so or is considered biased (?) for historical reasons (?) I don't know.

Jorg, with all due respect, how much do you actually know about the Western Sahara conflict apart from the fact that it has been festering for my entire lifetime?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And people wonder why I get grumpy.

These conflicts don't appear to be sooooo difficult as Darfur/Iran/Iraq, but the EU hasn't solved them. Why?

Because it's complicated and difficult and takes time and patience.

We don't expect to fix things quickly. The trick is trying not to make them worse while you try to find a solution.

The EU should bring peace to Bosnia and withdraw its troops rather than babysit for decades.

Doesn't work like that though, does it? What would the consequences of pulling out be?

Colman criticizes US failures and blames it on their stupidity; not just on Bush, another party in power would not make a difference, hes wrote.

Well, since the current "opposition" party seems to be scared to criticise the basis of the Bush policies that seems to be a reasonable conclusion. The Iraq war wasn't badly executed it was a bad idea that could never have worked. The Democratic party are so afraid of appearing "weak on terror" that I have little hope they'll pursue sensible policies anytime soon.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:16:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
IMHO, the Democratic Party is as committed to Imperial policies as the Republican party, they are just nicer about it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Joerg: But who is to blame for the EU failure to bring peace to Algeria during the ten years of civil war? Why did not the EU negotiate a peace? Is the US to blame for that as well? ... Or Bosnia? Or Kosovo?

*Migeru": Regarding Kosovo, UpstateNY has provided interesting insights into the less-than-helpful diplomacy conducted by the US. I shall dig up the links.

Ok, here we go. The claim seems to be that the Vance/Owen plan [drafted by EU diplomats] was a pretty good agreement
As well, I don't believe Bosnia should have been split up as envisioned by Izebetgovic/Tudjman/Milosevic early on. The Vance Owen plan seemed to present a perfectly functional framework for gov't, one that worked elswehere, and without 100,000 deaths that ensued, the people would have been much more capable of getting along in a power-sharing gov't.
and that this plan was shot down by American diplomacy, specifically James Baker, Madeleine Albright and James Rubin:
I think Holbrooke was one of the few who did things correctly. He essentially fought for the plan that Jim Baker killed three years earlier (Vance/Owen). If you look at Dayton and Vance Owen, they are very similar. Holbrooke was also very critical of Albright and her boy Jamie's conduct of Kosovo diplomacy. I dare say that if Holbrooke were still in charge, Kosovo would be a very different (and much better place) today.

When it comes to American diplomats dealing with the Balkans in the 90's, I rank them like so:

1. Holbrooke
.....
.....

  1. Albright and Jamie
  2. Jim Baker
Jamie is James Rubin.
Well, it depends on what you mean by integrity. Jamie was instrumental in sidelining the Kosovo Albanian leadership like Ibrahim Rugova in favor of KLA leaders like Hasim Thaci who were previously considered a bit too thuggish (by Holbrooke). By isolating Rugova and keeping him out of the talks, Rubin effectively triggered the collapse of talks at Rambouillet, especially when Thaci rejected the Serb acquiescence to Albright's demands for Kosovo.

I listened to Amanpour closely during that period. Her portrayal of the KLA as freedom fighters and her reportage PRIOR to western bombing were all too closely linked to the work of her husband on the ground. That's what I question. There were definite decisions for the West to make at that point, and Holbrooke would have opted for Rugova and a peaceful settlement. Instead, Albright opted for Rubin's way, and the clash ensued.

Now, here's how Albright and Rubin are supposed to have screwed things up at Rambouillet and precipitating a war:
The Serbs AGREED to Albright's demands at Rambouillet. They did NOT refuse a NATO military presence in Kosovo at Ramby. They allowed it. The Albanian side came into the room with Albright, as Albright was sponsoring them. She was reported to be completely livid by the Albanian response. When the meeting reconvened, the new text of the agreement included a proviso which stated that NATO would deploy to Serbia proper and have effective free reign. That's what the Serbs refused.
In more detail:
Look into the Rambouillet negotiations. There you will find your answer. The Serbs agreed to permanently give up the province so that the UN and NATO could rule it. This was 6 months before the war. However, because Albright had sidelined the peaceful elements of the Kosovo leadership (i.e. Ibrahim Rugova) she was left with egg on her face when the Serb capitulation at Ramby surprised both her and Hasim Thaci sitting beside her. To the Serbs, "Yes, we agree," Thaci replied with a "No, we Albanians do not agree." Albright was absolutely stunned. They left the room, and they came back with an additional demand. The Serbs would not only leave Kosovo and give it up to the UN, but they would allow the UN and NATO unfettered control of Serbia proper. A non-starter. Obviously. And there you have the blown diplomacy that led to the war. Without the hostilities that ensued, both sides would have been more amenable to a bicommunal federal state on the order of Bosnia. First off, 35% of the population were non-Albanians at the time as opposed to the 95% today. Fromm Racak to Operation Horseshoe, the West concocted an ethnic cleansing plan which had no basis in reality. before the bombs started dropping, Kosovo was a low-level counter-insurgency skirmish in which less than 1,500 had died in gun battles, about a third of those Serbs, and one thousand Albanians.
So, what is the conclusion?
Since Serbia is a regional power, the UN and EU will have to provide protection for many many years to Kosovo, and in so doing they will also have to prop it up financially. Until that time when both areas are integrated into the EU--if they ever are. Albania will be an EU member before this comes to pass.

Really, this is what happens when political neophytes like Madeliene albright try to make a necessary political point (punishment of Milosevic) without considering the consequences. If the Serbs see Kosovo as their land (and they surely do) they will regard it as such until that time that the fact of Kosovo's independence is completely erased from their cultural memory. That takes a long time. Probably a century. The fact that there have been 6 Balkan Wars in the last century, not including warring between these factions during the World Wars and the Kosovo War of 1999 shows that the two sides are not averse to fighting it out again and again and again over this same patch of territory. The colossal failure of diplomacy at Rambouillet is to blame for this mess. Had Albright done the proper thing and stuck by her initial proposals (which the Serbs accepted much to her consternation) then we would have had a viable peace, a Kosova for Albanians run by Albanians, and a small chunk of Mitrovica for the Serbs. The war itself created such hostility that this division is no longer possible, especially now that the West is on the ground and seen as protectors.

Yet another diplomatic screw-up among the many screw-ups that characterized the ex-Yugo wars of the 1990s.

And you think
The political issues in Bosnia and Kosovo don't appear to be as complicated [as in Iraq], but the EU does not make any progress.
Well, I think you're wrong.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:51:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, crap, all this work and I missed two links...

Look into the Rambouillet negotiations.

Since Serbia is a regional power

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When the US can't achieve peace: They are stupid.
When the EU can't achieve peace: The conflicts are complicated.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU and the US act at cross-purposes.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mind addressing the substance of what I quoted, for a change?

The US is not stupid. Holbrooke wasn't stupid. Baker is looking positively evil. Albright comes through as stupid [never mind her "500,000 dead iraqi children is a price the US is willing to pay"].

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:11:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Joerg, if you want to be taken seriously here, you have to stop such stupid knee-jerk comments.

Migeru provided a fairly extensive comment, with a lot of information and sources. I am in no position to say if all in there is true, but he certianly makes a compelling case that smart European and American diplomacy could have solved the Balkan crisis early on each time, and that it was shot down for stupid reasons, in some instances by otherAmericans.

How this was a Europe vs US comment escapes me.

So if you are irremediably convinced, after the past week of intense discussion, during which several regulars gave you extended comments/explanations/information, that this site is hopelessly anti-American, all I can tell you is - stop reading it before I start writing rude replies to more comments like this one.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am personally of the opinion that the race by European countries to recognize their WWI allies (France recognizing Serbia, Germany recognizing Croatia, if I remember correctly) was a big early mistake, too.

But that is beside the point. The point is that as a result of all their failures, which were openly acknowledged, the EU decided to create the Common Foreign and Security Policy which did not exist back then.

I am also still waiting for the US military to do an honest appraisal of its failures like the Netherlands did regarding Srebrenica.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:49:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fully agree with all this.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome,

Scroll up and look how this started with Colman several times calling the US stupid. For example with this:

My primary problem with US policies is their astonishing stupidity and counter-productiveness. It's not clear that switching party would help at all. Their unusual and brazen immorality is the icing on the cake.

When this discussion continued, I got the impression that EU difficulties were explained with how complicated everything was, while US difficulties were just called "astonishing stupidity" or "insanely stupid" by Colman and similarly by others in several threads of various diaries.

I did not have an issue with Migeru and his arguments. Therefore did not feel I needed to respond to his account of the Balkan history.

Colman was not talking about the Balkans, but in general. I should have made clear that I am mostly referring to Colman's comment. My mistake for not making that.

Sorry!
Sorry, Migeru.

Jerome, I don't see how my reply was "rude" or more "knee-jerk" than your response to the French prison comment.

"Provocative" or "harsh" or "unfair" maybe, but not "rude".

Read Migeru's comment:

We not only are bombarded with US information but we spent a disproportionate amount of time reading their tea leaves. Everyone thinks they know enough about the US to have an opinion. If you look at any other global or regional actor that is not the case. Hopefully ET will improve our own understanding of the EU and its member states. It's not easy.
http://www2.eurotrib.com/story/2006/9/15/125116/948#29

That won't happen, if the focus in many discussions on the Middle East is about highlighting US wrongdoings and "stupidity." I thought ETP is different from Dailykos.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 01:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you should add a "current" to Colman's comment, but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with his comment. I'd be curious to see you defend the Bush administration's international policies in the past few years.

As to my comment on French prisons, it was (probably like yours intended to be)  ironic but (i) i did not defend French actions and (ii) I did not retort with accusations in return, so I refuse the comparison. I just did not see the relevance of the reference to Algeria at this point, apart from the "you did it too" argument.

You were quite specific in accusing us of having extremely simplistic, and anti-American, views, which I find offensive and, quite simply, untrue.


That won't happen, if the focus in many discussions on the Middle East is about highlighting US wrongdoings and "stupidity."

Well, if we keep on being accused of being anti-American, we'll spend disproportionate time justifying our criticism. Try to be around when we discuss Europe without reference to the USA. It happens a lot more than you may think.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 06:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As to my comment on French prisons, it was (probably like yours intended to be)  ironic but (i) i did not defend French actions and (ii) I did not retort with accusations in return, so I refuse the comparison.

I did not defend US actions either.
I did not accuse anybody of "Anti-Americanism", but you repeatedly say so.
Yes, irony. A general comment about what often happens in European discussions, not just on ETB. Nothing more, nothing less.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 11:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You wrote:


When the US can't achieve peace: They are stupid.
When the EU can't achieve peace: The conflicts are complicated.

Obviously trying to interpret everybody else's opinions, and yes, quite explicitly calling us all anti-Americans (who think that everything the US does is stupid).

That came after a VERY substantial comment (and not anti-American) by Migeru which you completely ignored. It was totally out of place and frankly, callous to Migeru.

Meanwhile, we're still waiting for YOUR opinion on all of the topics you've raised.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 11:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"calling us all anti-Americans"

I did not.

"we're still waiting for YOUR opinion on all of the topics you've raised."

I gave a lot.  ;-)

I replied to your question. I also responded to your criticism re Migeru, but yet you bring it up again. Do I want me to repeat myself?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 12:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The history being that it is all the fault of the US and Israel?

Jöerg, we haven't spared the British and French of responsibility for the way they conducted decolonization in the middle east, or the way they carved it up after the Ottoman defeat in WWI.

As for your questions: the US is still the most powerful country, and so it mostly sets the international agenda. But that may not last if the US keeps acting stupidly.

Who has claimed the EU and its member states are run by enlightened brainiacs? Why should that mean they sould be able to set the international agenda?

Jerome's opinion [and I apologize if I'm putting words in his mouth] semms to be that the Iranian dispute is ultimately between the US and Iran, that the EU cannot "settle it" beyond bringing the US to the negotiating table, and that failing that they are settling on stalling the diplomatic process to defer the prospect of military action. I am not entirely convinced, but I have not seen another account of the EU's goals and strategy that makes more sense than this.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:04:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"the US is still the most powerful country, and so it mostly sets the international agenda."

Only because the EU and others can't organize themselves very well.

If the US is so stupid as Colman claims, the EU should be able to get more international support for its policies and be considered a global player and an important power broker, deal breaker, conflict solver, and security, investment etc provider, who sets the international agenda.

Re: Iran: I agree to a large extent, but the EU-3 is also supposed to mediate between Iran and the US/Israel. So far the mediator wasn't successful.
The "success" of stalling so far isn't really the result of great EU-3 work, but based on the fact that the US does not have the ressources to attack Iran anytime soon.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 11:59:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is some chatter about a new EU ambitious initiative for the Middle East that is supposed to drive the neocons nuts, when it is revealed...
Anybody know more about it?
Probably largely hot air, but I would love to be wrong.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any links to the chatter?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just read this on Darfur:
International Crisis Group:
"John Prendergast in The Philadelphia Inquirer
14 September 2006
The Bush White House has made 10 grievous mistakes that have only made matters worse."
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=4378

Most of the mistakes are about the peace talks.
Where was Europe at those negotiations?

The US tries to solve conflicts around the world and screws up very often. Somalia, Eritrea, Darfur etc.

Europe does not embarras herself making such mistakes. The EU embarrasses herself for not trying very hard to solve conflicts.

The EU provides a lot of development aid around the world. More than the US. That should give the EU some cloud, but Europe does not seem to be all that involved in peace talks, democratisation etc.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU can't even get a joint UN Sec Council position, let alone a reform of the UN.

The US isn't that powerful in the UN General Assembly. The US could veto a reform in the UN SC, but that would be very embarrassing. It would be a huge victory, if the EU could convince other countries in the UN GA to vote for a reform, but it failed so far.

Ergo: I disagree with the notion that the US sets the international agenda despite its "stupidity" because it is more powerful than the EU.
Rather: I think the problem is that the EU can't get organized.

Rather than discussing how to change that, ETB and other Europeans constantly criticise the bad US who prevent peace and progress etc.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:25:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll certainly agree that the EU is powerless because it has shown itself unable to find common positions and to stick to them.

Chirac, Blair and others love to strut on the world stage and appear important, forgettign each time that the only way that they ever get anything done is when they find a common position, which they've found extremely hard to do.

Part of it is the toxic relationship between the two men, part of it is outsiders who alos enjoy playing them off one agaisnst the other (but that works only because our European leaders let them and play along), and part of it is the history of mistrust between European countries, especially these two.

The Constitution was a first institutional step to try to solve this; but at the" core countries like France and the UK have to admit that they cannot go it alone anymore. Having a joint EU seat at the UN and other organisations would be the appropriate step to have a seachange in Europe's influence.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To a large extent, the EU is a group of 25 countries that like to add up their statistics to look big.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've just re-read your comment: fuck your "calling bullshit".

Current US policy is insanely stupid and guaranteed to cause more problems than it solves. For that reason it needs to be contained. The moral argument is a horrified aside. We've detailed a hundred times.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can I remind us all of the first rule of keeping things civil on the net? Assume the best about your interlocutors.


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:29:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Current US policy is insanely stupid and guaranteed to cause more problems than it solves. For that reason it needs to be contained.

Yup. But the commenters here are not talking about a short term tactical shift in European foreign that will then revert back to Atlanticism when US policy goes back to a sanity, but rather a long term strategic reorientation.

The moral argument is a horrified aside.

That's not the way I read the comments on this thread and many others. From what I can tell the moral argument is an integral part of what I see as a call to something akin to US containment policy during the Cold War - though of course conveniently eliding the moral compromises such a policy would require if it were to be anything more than EU isolationism.

by MarekNYC on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:36:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the commenters here are not talking about a short term tactical shift in European foreign that will then revert back to Atlanticism when US policy goes back to a sanity, but rather a long term strategic reorientation.

Perhaps you'd like to explain the point of Atlanticism to us? Maybe a diary that explains what the strategic benefit of it to Europe is? Because in the changed strategic environment that applies now I don't see it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe a diary that explains what the strategic benefit of it to Europe is?

Will do.

by MarekNYC on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 04:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am looking forward to Marek's diary.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Marek, you have now attained a level of unsubstantiated assumption, or interpretation, of what people say here and what it may be supposed to entail, that you have a diary to write elucidating just quite what you mean. Otherwise, if it's all the same to you, I'll call bullshit.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Give him a break. He is going to write a diary on a difficult subject. Give him some credit.

So many folks constantly complain about the US rather than outlining what an independent European policy would look like.

Such a European policy independent from the US would be great and much better than staying on the sidelines and complain about US policy 24/7.

Why hasn't the EU progressed any furhter with such European Foreign Policy?

It has been declared a goal for ages, but the EU countries can't get their act together.

Even the mission in Lebanon isn't an EU organized mission. Solana wasn't even coordinating it very much. The EU member states did not let him.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The atlanticist EU member states did not let him.

Remember who opposed an EU call for an immediate ceasefire? The UK, Germany, Czechia and Netherlands according to press reports.

The fact is, Atlanticism is a major axis of opinion [in the sense of the dimensions of the Political Compass: I lack a name for the opposite direction to Atlanticism] in the EU. There doesn't seem to be any likelihood of a consensus on that dimension for the foreseeable future.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If pressed, what I personally would probably advocate is an independent foreign policy for Europe, and I see Atlanticism [embdied in NATO] as submitting European policy to US diktat. Sure, with Bush in the White House "containment" seems like a fair description of what Europe should be (or maybe is increasingly) doing. With a more civilised administration that is actually interested in working within the international system, Europe would likely act as an ally of the US.

Less NATO, more UN, a multipolar world. Feel free to make a realpolitik argument for why it can't work.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 04:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the commenters here are not talking about a short term tactical shift in European foreign that will then revert back to Atlanticism when US policy goes back to a sanity, but rather a long term strategic reorientation.

I mean, before Europe has the leeway to tactically shift its position with respect to the US, a strategic reorientation needs to take place. Right now, US strategy seems to define the boundaries of Europe's tactics.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 04:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the majority of the Europeans on this site urge Europe to break with the Atlanticist tradition in favour of a European foreign policy that seeks to contain the US.
---
Yup. But the commenters here are not talking about a short term tactical shift in European foreign that will then revert back to Atlanticism when US policy goes back to a sanity, but rather a long term strategic reorientation.

That's a rather limited account of what some of us advocate. For example, have you read this reply to wchurchill?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:50:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd be curious where you see moral arguments in anything I've contributed herde

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 04:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You do so on moral grounds.

You are probably conflating me and some others with Jérôme. This is a problem because (a) Jérôme as he says is more of a realpolitik guy, (b) criticising French policy on moral grounds is not beyond me (in fact, look back how I described the nineties bombings affair). On the other hand, I note that for me moral and rational realpolitik don't separate clearly.

One elephant in the backgroom throughout this discussion has been that the promotion of "modernity" in the Middle East is seriously hampered by its source and advocates not living up to its ideals in their policies towards the region, and this is also widely perceived and seen as important (as opposed to say Africa, but not unlike say Latin America). The immorality of even the most clever realpolitik will erode the soft power of its applier.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Solutions take time, especially when the problem at hand involves politics, economics, sociology and culture. But politicians and pundits want results now.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:36:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership is supposed to bring long-term results.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:46:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of things that Europe is doing are supposed to bring long-term results and proceed at glacial speed and without generating headlines, which is not to the liking of liberal hawk, neo-con, or interventionist politicians and pundits.

Your question about what the Euromed has done, is doing, and what can be done to strengthen it is a good one. I have acknowledged it. I have pointed out where to find out more. I have said I don't know more. OK?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:53:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The whole idea that neither Islam, the fucked up regimes in the Middle East, or the long history of European meddling there have anything to do with the current situation, that it rests in hands of one man alone, Geroge Bush, is pretty fairy tale to tell yourself so you can sleep at night (means no scary religious terrorists, no guilt, no responsibility on your part), but it's not going to solve any problems.  You need reality for that.

Where did that come? What drove you to write that?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:48:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is lot of rhetoric, mostly in America but also in Europe, that Bush is responsible for all these problems.  He's responsible for the current escalation of fear and violence, but colonialism, racism, fundamentalist religion, oil, oil dependance, tyranical regimes in the Middle East all existed before he came along.  

We had all the ingredients for a bomb.  He just decided to use it.  

We need to get rid of Bush, America needs to pull out of its wars and stop this insanity.  But better yet to reform our lifestyles, to acknowledge our past mistakes and try to level the playing field for those we've abuse, to stop our double standards, etc. so that we don't have a bomb sitting around waiting for a nutjob to come along and use it.  And to do this, we, in my humble opinion, need to stop giving religious fundies, on both sides, immunity from responsibility, we need to hold everyone equally accountable for their actions, not just Bush, but those who actively incite hate, and I'm not talking about cartoons but about teaching kids how to make bombs, those who deny having played a role in this, whether by being addicted to resources in the Middle East or by having gone in and fucked things up and left without compensation, or by just sitting by and watching the clock tick and not doing anything to prevent a crisis and then when a crisis happens running around like chickens with their heads cut off, and we must must must provide opportunies to all children to given them better choices in life than to be a terrorist or joining the army.  Sure the idiots calling the shots had good opportunities, but we need to stop their ability to recruit.

That's the only way to end that cycle of violence.

And basically stop treating people like dirt, if we want them to stop wanting to kill us.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is a long-term project, not a matter of what we can do now.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is never too early to start.  

This is a long term problem; it is going to require a long term solution.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is lot of rhetoric, mostly in America but also in Europe, that Bush is responsible for all these problems.  He's responsible for the current escalation of fear and violence, but colonialism, racism, fundamentalist religion, oil, oil dependance, tyranical regimes in the Middle East all existed before he came along.  

We had all the ingredients for a bomb.  He just decided to use it.

That is actually very dangerous rhetoric, because when Bush is finally gone people will breathe a sigh of relief and think all is well, things will sort themselves out and they can stop being concerned.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed.

It's the underlying narrative of 'We own the planet - so fuck you, and give us all your resources' that needs to change.

Bush is just the most visible mushroom head of a much deeper established moral rot among the Western elites.

There's nothing complicated about this. The US is reviled the world over because many of the people in its elites are thieves and criminals, with not infrequent Fascist leanings.

If it stopped its regular scheduled program of invasions, coups, destabilisations, torture camps, extraordinary renditions, and economic pillage, all promoted under the deeply cynical label of 'democracy', the rest of the world might suddenly become more pleasantly disposed to it.

As it is, people know exactly what they're getting. Which - unsurprisingly - is why they really, really don't like it.

Sugar coating the abuse with Mickey Mouse and CocaCola can only go so far when your loved ones have been disappeared, or buried under what's left of a building.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:12:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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