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We have discussed the Algerian conflict, and you thought it was ok for Europe to tacitly or explicitly endorse the coup that led to the civil war, so don't give me  any more crap about it.

Responsibility for Western Sahara lies originally with Spain.

Northern Cyprus is a conflict in which Greece, a EU member state, is an interested party, and so it is hard for the EU to be a mediator.

As for Bosnia, Europe's failure there is responsible for the decision to create a European Common Foreign and Security Policy, which did not exist before. So, again, you can't fault Europe for not using a tool that did not exist before 1995.

Regarding Kosovo, UpstateNY has provided interesting insights into the less-than-helpful diplomacy conducted by the US. I shall dig up the links.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:05:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1.) Algeria Tacitly endorsing the coup does not mean you should not try to end the civil war that took place for ten years.

2.) "Responsibility for Western Sahara lies originally with Spain."

What are you saying?
I think it has been a humanitarian crises for decades. It is close to Europe, the EU should try to broker a solution, if Spain can't do so or is considered biased (?) for historical reasons (?) I don't know.

3.) Re Cyprus: Still, it is a conflict in our backyard. And then you got the issue of Turkish EU membership and those silly Turkish-Greek quarrels that resulted in that fighter plane crash recently. These conflicts don't appear to be sooooo difficult as Darfur/Iran/Iraq, but the EU hasn't solved them. Why?

4.) Re Bosnia: I criticize that there are still thousands of our troops in Bosnia. The EU should bring peace to Bosnia and withdraw its troops rather than babysit for decades. European papers criticize the political failures in Iraq. The political issues in Bosnia and Kosovo don't appear to be as complicated, but the EU does not make any progress.

5.) Conclusion:
Colman criticizes US failures and blames it on their stupidity; not just on Bush, another party in power would not make a difference, hes wrote.

Perhaps I exaggerate, but for me this suggests that Colman assumes that the European governments are smarter and more successful in solving conflicts, if those stupid Americans don't interfere as they do Iran. Thus I pointed to some other ongoing conflicts, which the EU should have solved. Instead of discussing those conflicts and EU shortcominings, most European newspapers and citizens discuss US failurs.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:04:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
2.) "Responsibility for Western Sahara lies originally with Spain."

What are you saying?
I think it has been a humanitarian crises for decades. It is close to Europe, the EU should try to broker a solution, if Spain can't do so or is considered biased (?) for historical reasons (?) I don't know.

Jorg, with all due respect, how much do you actually know about the Western Sahara conflict apart from the fact that it has been festering for my entire lifetime?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And people wonder why I get grumpy.

These conflicts don't appear to be sooooo difficult as Darfur/Iran/Iraq, but the EU hasn't solved them. Why?

Because it's complicated and difficult and takes time and patience.

We don't expect to fix things quickly. The trick is trying not to make them worse while you try to find a solution.

The EU should bring peace to Bosnia and withdraw its troops rather than babysit for decades.

Doesn't work like that though, does it? What would the consequences of pulling out be?

Colman criticizes US failures and blames it on their stupidity; not just on Bush, another party in power would not make a difference, hes wrote.

Well, since the current "opposition" party seems to be scared to criticise the basis of the Bush policies that seems to be a reasonable conclusion. The Iraq war wasn't badly executed it was a bad idea that could never have worked. The Democratic party are so afraid of appearing "weak on terror" that I have little hope they'll pursue sensible policies anytime soon.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:16:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
IMHO, the Democratic Party is as committed to Imperial policies as the Republican party, they are just nicer about it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Joerg: But who is to blame for the EU failure to bring peace to Algeria during the ten years of civil war? Why did not the EU negotiate a peace? Is the US to blame for that as well? ... Or Bosnia? Or Kosovo?

*Migeru": Regarding Kosovo, UpstateNY has provided interesting insights into the less-than-helpful diplomacy conducted by the US. I shall dig up the links.

Ok, here we go. The claim seems to be that the Vance/Owen plan [drafted by EU diplomats] was a pretty good agreement
As well, I don't believe Bosnia should have been split up as envisioned by Izebetgovic/Tudjman/Milosevic early on. The Vance Owen plan seemed to present a perfectly functional framework for gov't, one that worked elswehere, and without 100,000 deaths that ensued, the people would have been much more capable of getting along in a power-sharing gov't.
and that this plan was shot down by American diplomacy, specifically James Baker, Madeleine Albright and James Rubin:
I think Holbrooke was one of the few who did things correctly. He essentially fought for the plan that Jim Baker killed three years earlier (Vance/Owen). If you look at Dayton and Vance Owen, they are very similar. Holbrooke was also very critical of Albright and her boy Jamie's conduct of Kosovo diplomacy. I dare say that if Holbrooke were still in charge, Kosovo would be a very different (and much better place) today.

When it comes to American diplomats dealing with the Balkans in the 90's, I rank them like so:

1. Holbrooke
.....
.....

  1. Albright and Jamie
  2. Jim Baker
Jamie is James Rubin.
Well, it depends on what you mean by integrity. Jamie was instrumental in sidelining the Kosovo Albanian leadership like Ibrahim Rugova in favor of KLA leaders like Hasim Thaci who were previously considered a bit too thuggish (by Holbrooke). By isolating Rugova and keeping him out of the talks, Rubin effectively triggered the collapse of talks at Rambouillet, especially when Thaci rejected the Serb acquiescence to Albright's demands for Kosovo.

I listened to Amanpour closely during that period. Her portrayal of the KLA as freedom fighters and her reportage PRIOR to western bombing were all too closely linked to the work of her husband on the ground. That's what I question. There were definite decisions for the West to make at that point, and Holbrooke would have opted for Rugova and a peaceful settlement. Instead, Albright opted for Rubin's way, and the clash ensued.

Now, here's how Albright and Rubin are supposed to have screwed things up at Rambouillet and precipitating a war:
The Serbs AGREED to Albright's demands at Rambouillet. They did NOT refuse a NATO military presence in Kosovo at Ramby. They allowed it. The Albanian side came into the room with Albright, as Albright was sponsoring them. She was reported to be completely livid by the Albanian response. When the meeting reconvened, the new text of the agreement included a proviso which stated that NATO would deploy to Serbia proper and have effective free reign. That's what the Serbs refused.
In more detail:
Look into the Rambouillet negotiations. There you will find your answer. The Serbs agreed to permanently give up the province so that the UN and NATO could rule it. This was 6 months before the war. However, because Albright had sidelined the peaceful elements of the Kosovo leadership (i.e. Ibrahim Rugova) she was left with egg on her face when the Serb capitulation at Ramby surprised both her and Hasim Thaci sitting beside her. To the Serbs, "Yes, we agree," Thaci replied with a "No, we Albanians do not agree." Albright was absolutely stunned. They left the room, and they came back with an additional demand. The Serbs would not only leave Kosovo and give it up to the UN, but they would allow the UN and NATO unfettered control of Serbia proper. A non-starter. Obviously. And there you have the blown diplomacy that led to the war. Without the hostilities that ensued, both sides would have been more amenable to a bicommunal federal state on the order of Bosnia. First off, 35% of the population were non-Albanians at the time as opposed to the 95% today. Fromm Racak to Operation Horseshoe, the West concocted an ethnic cleansing plan which had no basis in reality. before the bombs started dropping, Kosovo was a low-level counter-insurgency skirmish in which less than 1,500 had died in gun battles, about a third of those Serbs, and one thousand Albanians.
So, what is the conclusion?
Since Serbia is a regional power, the UN and EU will have to provide protection for many many years to Kosovo, and in so doing they will also have to prop it up financially. Until that time when both areas are integrated into the EU--if they ever are. Albania will be an EU member before this comes to pass.

Really, this is what happens when political neophytes like Madeliene albright try to make a necessary political point (punishment of Milosevic) without considering the consequences. If the Serbs see Kosovo as their land (and they surely do) they will regard it as such until that time that the fact of Kosovo's independence is completely erased from their cultural memory. That takes a long time. Probably a century. The fact that there have been 6 Balkan Wars in the last century, not including warring between these factions during the World Wars and the Kosovo War of 1999 shows that the two sides are not averse to fighting it out again and again and again over this same patch of territory. The colossal failure of diplomacy at Rambouillet is to blame for this mess. Had Albright done the proper thing and stuck by her initial proposals (which the Serbs accepted much to her consternation) then we would have had a viable peace, a Kosova for Albanians run by Albanians, and a small chunk of Mitrovica for the Serbs. The war itself created such hostility that this division is no longer possible, especially now that the West is on the ground and seen as protectors.

Yet another diplomatic screw-up among the many screw-ups that characterized the ex-Yugo wars of the 1990s.

And you think
The political issues in Bosnia and Kosovo don't appear to be as complicated [as in Iraq], but the EU does not make any progress.
Well, I think you're wrong.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:51:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, crap, all this work and I missed two links...

Look into the Rambouillet negotiations.

Since Serbia is a regional power

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When the US can't achieve peace: They are stupid.
When the EU can't achieve peace: The conflicts are complicated.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU and the US act at cross-purposes.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mind addressing the substance of what I quoted, for a change?

The US is not stupid. Holbrooke wasn't stupid. Baker is looking positively evil. Albright comes through as stupid [never mind her "500,000 dead iraqi children is a price the US is willing to pay"].

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:11:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Joerg, if you want to be taken seriously here, you have to stop such stupid knee-jerk comments.

Migeru provided a fairly extensive comment, with a lot of information and sources. I am in no position to say if all in there is true, but he certianly makes a compelling case that smart European and American diplomacy could have solved the Balkan crisis early on each time, and that it was shot down for stupid reasons, in some instances by otherAmericans.

How this was a Europe vs US comment escapes me.

So if you are irremediably convinced, after the past week of intense discussion, during which several regulars gave you extended comments/explanations/information, that this site is hopelessly anti-American, all I can tell you is - stop reading it before I start writing rude replies to more comments like this one.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am personally of the opinion that the race by European countries to recognize their WWI allies (France recognizing Serbia, Germany recognizing Croatia, if I remember correctly) was a big early mistake, too.

But that is beside the point. The point is that as a result of all their failures, which were openly acknowledged, the EU decided to create the Common Foreign and Security Policy which did not exist back then.

I am also still waiting for the US military to do an honest appraisal of its failures like the Netherlands did regarding Srebrenica.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:49:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fully agree with all this.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome,

Scroll up and look how this started with Colman several times calling the US stupid. For example with this:

My primary problem with US policies is their astonishing stupidity and counter-productiveness. It's not clear that switching party would help at all. Their unusual and brazen immorality is the icing on the cake.

When this discussion continued, I got the impression that EU difficulties were explained with how complicated everything was, while US difficulties were just called "astonishing stupidity" or "insanely stupid" by Colman and similarly by others in several threads of various diaries.

I did not have an issue with Migeru and his arguments. Therefore did not feel I needed to respond to his account of the Balkan history.

Colman was not talking about the Balkans, but in general. I should have made clear that I am mostly referring to Colman's comment. My mistake for not making that.

Sorry!
Sorry, Migeru.

Jerome, I don't see how my reply was "rude" or more "knee-jerk" than your response to the French prison comment.

"Provocative" or "harsh" or "unfair" maybe, but not "rude".

Read Migeru's comment:

We not only are bombarded with US information but we spent a disproportionate amount of time reading their tea leaves. Everyone thinks they know enough about the US to have an opinion. If you look at any other global or regional actor that is not the case. Hopefully ET will improve our own understanding of the EU and its member states. It's not easy.
http://www2.eurotrib.com/story/2006/9/15/125116/948#29

That won't happen, if the focus in many discussions on the Middle East is about highlighting US wrongdoings and "stupidity." I thought ETP is different from Dailykos.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 01:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you should add a "current" to Colman's comment, but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with his comment. I'd be curious to see you defend the Bush administration's international policies in the past few years.

As to my comment on French prisons, it was (probably like yours intended to be)  ironic but (i) i did not defend French actions and (ii) I did not retort with accusations in return, so I refuse the comparison. I just did not see the relevance of the reference to Algeria at this point, apart from the "you did it too" argument.

You were quite specific in accusing us of having extremely simplistic, and anti-American, views, which I find offensive and, quite simply, untrue.


That won't happen, if the focus in many discussions on the Middle East is about highlighting US wrongdoings and "stupidity."

Well, if we keep on being accused of being anti-American, we'll spend disproportionate time justifying our criticism. Try to be around when we discuss Europe without reference to the USA. It happens a lot more than you may think.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 06:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As to my comment on French prisons, it was (probably like yours intended to be)  ironic but (i) i did not defend French actions and (ii) I did not retort with accusations in return, so I refuse the comparison.

I did not defend US actions either.
I did not accuse anybody of "Anti-Americanism", but you repeatedly say so.
Yes, irony. A general comment about what often happens in European discussions, not just on ETB. Nothing more, nothing less.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 11:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You wrote:


When the US can't achieve peace: They are stupid.
When the EU can't achieve peace: The conflicts are complicated.

Obviously trying to interpret everybody else's opinions, and yes, quite explicitly calling us all anti-Americans (who think that everything the US does is stupid).

That came after a VERY substantial comment (and not anti-American) by Migeru which you completely ignored. It was totally out of place and frankly, callous to Migeru.

Meanwhile, we're still waiting for YOUR opinion on all of the topics you've raised.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 11:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"calling us all anti-Americans"

I did not.

"we're still waiting for YOUR opinion on all of the topics you've raised."

I gave a lot.  ;-)

I replied to your question. I also responded to your criticism re Migeru, but yet you bring it up again. Do I want me to repeat myself?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 12:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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