***"To Defeat the Beast, Don't Feed the Beast" | 212 comments (212 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: WHAT SHOULD BE DONE? (none / 1)

Oh, crap, all this work and I missed two links...

Since Serbia is a regional power

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WHAT SHOULD BE DONE? (none / 0)

When the US can't achieve peace: They are stupid.
When the EU can't achieve peace: The conflicts are complicated.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WHAT SHOULD BE DONE? (none / 0)

The EU and the US act at cross-purposes.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WHAT SHOULD BE DONE? (none / 0)

Do you mind addressing the substance of what I quoted, for a change?

The US is not stupid. Holbrooke wasn't stupid. Baker is looking positively evil. Albright comes through as stupid [never mind her "500,000 dead iraqi children is a price the US is willing to pay"].

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:11:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Now that's really stupid comment (none / 1)

Joerg, if you want to be taken seriously here, you have to stop such stupid knee-jerk comments.

Migeru provided a fairly extensive comment, with a lot of information and sources. I am in no position to say if all in there is true, but he certianly makes a compelling case that smart European and American diplomacy could have solved the Balkan crisis early on each time, and that it was shot down for stupid reasons, in some instances by otherAmericans.

How this was a Europe vs US comment escapes me.

So if you are irremediably convinced, after the past week of intense discussion, during which several regulars gave you extended comments/explanations/information, that this site is hopelessly anti-American, all I can tell you is - stop reading it before I start writing rude replies to more comments like this one.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now that's really stupid comment (none / 1)

I am personally of the opinion that the race by European countries to recognize their WWI allies (France recognizing Serbia, Germany recognizing Croatia, if I remember correctly) was a big early mistake, too.

But that is beside the point. The point is that as a result of all their failures, which were openly acknowledged, the EU decided to create the Common Foreign and Security Policy which did not exist back then.

I am also still waiting for the US military to do an honest appraisal of its failures like the Netherlands did regarding Srebrenica.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:49:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now that's really stupid comment (4.00 / 2)

Fully agree with all this.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now that's really stupid comment (none / 0)

Jerome,

Scroll up and look how this started with Colman several times calling the US stupid. For example with this:

My primary problem with US policies is their astonishing stupidity and counter-productiveness. It's not clear that switching party would help at all. Their unusual and brazen immorality is the icing on the cake.

When this discussion continued, I got the impression that EU difficulties were explained with how complicated everything was, while US difficulties were just called "astonishing stupidity" or "insanely stupid" by Colman and similarly by others in several threads of various diaries.

I did not have an issue with Migeru and his arguments. Therefore did not feel I needed to respond to his account of the Balkan history.

Colman was not talking about the Balkans, but in general. I should have made clear that I am mostly referring to Colman's comment. My mistake for not making that.

Sorry!
Sorry, Migeru.

Jerome, I don't see how my reply was "rude" or more "knee-jerk" than your response to the French prison comment.

"Provocative" or "harsh" or "unfair" maybe, but not "rude".

Read Migeru's comment:

We not only are bombarded with US information but we spent a disproportionate amount of time reading their tea leaves. Everyone thinks they know enough about the US to have an opinion. If you look at any other global or regional actor that is not the case. Hopefully ET will improve our own understanding of the EU and its member states. It's not easy.
http://www2.eurotrib.com/story/2006/9/15/125116/948#29

That won't happen, if the focus in many discussions on the Middle East is about highlighting US wrongdoings and "stupidity." I thought ETP is different from Dailykos.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 01:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now that's really stupid comment (none / 0)

Maybe you should add a "current" to Colman's comment, but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with his comment. I'd be curious to see you defend the Bush administration's international policies in the past few years.

As to my comment on French prisons, it was (probably like yours intended to be) ironic but (i) i did not defend French actions and (ii) I did not retort with accusations in return, so I refuse the comparison. I just did not see the relevance of the reference to Algeria at this point, apart from the "you did it too" argument.

You were quite specific in accusing us of having extremely simplistic, and anti-American, views, which I find offensive and, quite simply, untrue.

That won't happen, if the focus in many discussions on the Middle East is about highlighting US wrongdoings and "stupidity."

Well, if we keep on being accused of being anti-American, we'll spend disproportionate time justifying our criticism. Try to be around when we discuss Europe without reference to the USA. It happens a lot more than you may think.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 06:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now that's really stupid comment (none / 0)

As to my comment on French prisons, it was (probably like yours intended to be) ironic but (i) i did not defend French actions and (ii) I did not retort with accusations in return, so I refuse the comparison.

I did not defend US actions either.
I did not accuse anybody of "Anti-Americanism", but you repeatedly say so.
Yes, irony. A general comment about what often happens in European discussions, not just on ETB. Nothing more, nothing less.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 11:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now that's really stupid comment (none / 0)

You wrote:

When the US can't achieve peace: They are stupid.
When the EU can't achieve peace: The conflicts are complicated.

Obviously trying to interpret everybody else's opinions, and yes, quite explicitly calling us all anti-Americans (who think that everything the US does is stupid).

That came after a VERY substantial comment (and not anti-American) by Migeru which you completely ignored. It was totally out of place and frankly, callous to Migeru.

Meanwhile, we're still waiting for YOUR opinion on all of the topics you've raised.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 11:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now that's really stupid comment (none / 0)

"calling us all anti-Americans"

I did not.

"we're still waiting for YOUR opinion on all of the topics you've raised."

I gave a lot. ;-)

I replied to your question. I also responded to your criticism re Migeru, but yet you bring it up again. Do I want me to repeat myself?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 at 12:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

***"To Defeat the Beast, Don't Feed the Beast" | 212 comments (212 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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