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Let's see... Gravity in fact determines the forces that the aircraft engines can generate, and the lift from aurodynamic effects. As long as the structural integrity of the aircraft is not an issu (i.e., at all times before impact) one can assume that there are no sustained accelerations larger than gravity in order of magnitude. Otherwise passenger flights would be so uncomfortable so as to be impractical. Normal lift basically balances gravity, etc.

So, we have the acceleration of gravity (9.8 m/s^2) and the speed of the plane (230 m/s from 762 ft/s). From this I can construct a characteristic length (v^2/g = 5.4 Km) and a characteristic time scale (v/g = 23 s).

Flight 77 was a 757 with a length of 50m, a wingspan of 40m and a tail height of 14m. The Pentagon is 24m tall and each of the outer walls is 280m long. A typical runway will be typically narrower than the pentagon's walls (under 100m) but at least a couple of kilometres long (the relevant dimension to compare with the height of the pentagon).

Terminal velocity is irrelevant: a plane is not spherical, to recall the famous joke about the mathematician and the cow.

This is all before impact, but there was some discussion of the target approach last night. On impact, gravity indeed seems irrelevant again, except that structures such as planes and buildings are, again, designed so that internal stresses at rest balance gravity. So gravity again can give a useful idea of orders of magnitude.

The great Richard Feynman was once giving a lecture about the forces of nature and he says "gravity is incredibly weak", at which point one of the loudspeakers in the lecture hall fell from the wall. Feynman said "weak, but not negligible".

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 03:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since manon accuses me of sexism for having placed a comment on the last comment in the subthread at that moment, let me have a go at a man instead: don't you think it's unfair to IdiotSavant to crud up his diary with this off-topic discussion? There's an Open Thread, and no it isn't a fucking firing range and no it isn't fucking open for business and shape up all of you!!!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 03:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will not tolerate obviously misanthropic comments on "my" blog. They're torturing me. Vaguely.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you really are ungracious
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oops, yes, you're right. I posted after reading updated comments, sorry. No need to hijack this diary!
by Alex in Toulouse on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:09:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
chill
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:17:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fucking suggest fucking making the fucking subthread editorial and everyone can fucking repost their fucking comments in the fucking open thread if they fucking feel like it.

I note your comment and my comment were almost simultaneous. If I had read your comment I wouldn't have posted this one. I apologize.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks very fucking much. I don't know how to make it editorial, I spend all my nights making wooden toys and they haven't sent me to gnome school yet.

The fuckings weren't personal. It's just, as Alex says, that demoting Pluto is causing all kinds of trouble...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mine weren't personal either, I just felt like making a vice-presidential comment.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so, a 'cheney moment'...

meaning a brief but all-telling emergence of psychopathology usually embedded in a matrix of normal 'homo neurotico-economicus' behaviour.

a subset of 'dick-brain', subsuset of 'miserable failure' and 'can't shoot straight' socio-cultural vectors

file under 'foulmouthed megalomaniac'!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 05:51:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
oops, i meant to tie he threads together with humour's ribbon:

it's big dick who's behind the torture as much as georgie, i'll brt my viagra on it!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 05:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, "disappearing" the subthread might not be the very smartest thing to do...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:29:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People can retrieve it from their own comment lists. I will personally defend the gnomes against accusations of censorship if the thread is hidden.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:31:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry, no - gravity does not determine the forces that an aircraft engine can generate

there are two ways to address this:

  1.  the lift you can theoretically get from an aircraft wing

  2.  the thrust or torque that an aircraft engine can generate

gravity plays a small part in the lift that you can generate, as a downwards force, but the Bernoulli equation for incompressible fluids (of which air is with a Mach number under .6) is the determining equation here - the lift generated is the result of the pressure differential across a surface (and gravity is taken into account in that equation)

gravity plays no part in the equation of the thrust or the torque that an engine can generate - this is limited by the efficiency of the compressor, which is dictated by its mechanical design and the physical properties of the fluid (air is considered to be a fluid) being used

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's take this to the open thread.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 04:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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