The Maglev Mirage | 78 comments (73 topical, 5 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

Nothing against starry-eyed boyish obsession when it makes sense, of course :-)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 10:32:34 AM EST

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

I was about to quote that line, because my question(s) probably fills the criteria.

Is there any technical reason they can't plate all sleepers with solar panels (or paint on a suitable substance etc.)? If they also placed solar panels to either side of railway tracks, would the two (panels on sleepers plus panels either side of the track) generate significant power to the network?

The starry-eyed part is that I wish to see a non-polluting high-tech train network--at a reasonable cost--spreading across Europe and beyond. And asap.

The boyish obsession part is that I see lots of "mostly not being used" track sitting there and think...what I wrote above.

Could they also (or instead of solar panels) place windmills either side of the tracks?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 10:40:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (4.00 / 4)

Well... just for the heck of it, let's take a 100 km high-speed railway with two tracks, no tunnels or bridges or walls to the South, with two trains per hour per direction running with an average power of 5000 kW and no significant regenerative braking, each train taking 30 minutes. That makes an average power need of 10 MW. Taking a central European yearly average capacity factor of 11%, a further reduction by a factor of 0.7 due to laying the solar panels flat rather than inclined, we'd need a generating capacity [e.g. nominal capacity] of around 130 MW. You get solar panels with 80-140 W/m² nominal power, the larger the higher, due to the small width of sleepers let's go with 100 W/m² -- hence you need to cover 1,300,000 m². If I'm generous, you can consider fixed track instread of track on sleepers, and you have a suitable area of 1.3 m² per metre track between the rails, that is 130,000 m²: only a tenth of what is needed.

The above was all just a theoretical exercise. In practise, due to the vibrations, whipped-up stones, and dirt falling off trains (if you can keep oil in check, there is still snow and powder from brake pads), solar cells have no chance of surviving in tracks, or over a bit longer time even on the ground near tracks.

Wind power would be much more likely to have the potential: you'd only need 16 turbines of 2.5 MW each to give the needed average power, and with four times as many, you could cover the power need (with some to spare) most of the time.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 11:09:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

We're comparing apples and oranges. A 2.5 MW turbine requires no obstacles in a 125,000 m^2 area around it [I'm assuming a nominal efficiency of 20 W/m^2 as we have calculated months ago when comparing wind farms with nuclear powers, and the like).

So in terms of the area needed, wind and solar come to about the same.

I think building a square kilometre of solar paners is more polluting than 40 2.5MW turbines. Or is it?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 11:23:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

I've never liked the Maglev idea either. ICE and TGV are several times cheaper and almost as fast (320 km/h (with a potential of 350 km/h) versus 430 km/h). I'd much rather have 500 km TGV/ICE than 50 km (or whatever) Maglev.

We have a dormant TGV/ICE project in Sweden called The European Corridor. The old corrupt government never pushed it, but maybe the new one will.

I really hope it will.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 11:43:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

Are you saying you expect the new right-wing government to be less corrupt than the old left-wing one? What are you basing this on?

by Trond Ove on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 12:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

Also: a right-wing government (one advocating a more liberal economic policy to boot) more firendly to investment into public transport?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 05:32:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

Contracts for their friends and family in industry.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 05:34:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

They are also a lot more pro-industry and would love to spend public money to improve the competitivness of Swedish industry, especially if it would create new jobs, as they were elected mainly on a jobs platform.

Furthermore, the main rightwing party has been very opposed to having free market road tolls in the capital. I am holding my fingers crossed. :)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 05:43:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

Right. Or maybe, being more pro-industry, they will go on a new privatization spree making things worse not better. Or the kind of semi-privatization schemes that is providing (or increasing?) state funding for private schools to provide more 'choice', or similar in the healthcare industry. I have heard both of those things suggested at some point.
By free market road tolls in the capital, do you mean the congestion tax? How is this a free market road toll? It seems like a measure to promote use of public transport and decrease traffic in the city. Popular with those who actually live in the city, less so to the suburbians. I don't see how the congestion tax is anything but a good thing.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 06:17:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

The Swedish (heavy) industry has been burned by power deregulation and recoils from anything that sounds like privatization. The new pm has argued against Cevian assaulting Volvo etc. Industrial capitalism is making a comeback against financial capitalism.

Schools and hospital privatization is not anything to worry about as it will still be tax-payed. If the private schools (which anyone can be admitted to free of charge) do better that the public schools it's a good thing and if they don't they'll close. It's a win-win situation.

On a tangent, the pm has his kids in public school in spite of a majority of schools in his hometown being private.

-----------------------------------------------------
The congestion tax is a neoliberal idea, which is why Federley and the neolibs support it. The argument is that roads are a good like any other and the price of using it should be decided by supply and demand. That is, if there is a large demand on roads and a small supply (=congestion) there should be a cost so the poor stays away from driving so the rich can have a nicer driving experience.

What if we did like this in the hospital emergency room or in public transport?

- Sorry we just have had a large car accident so we can't take care of your gunshot wound right now. But you can cut the line if you pay €1000.

- Because of the congestion in the subway we have decided to increase fare prices to €10 so supply meets demand without inefficient congestion. Have a nice day.

Those are absurd solutions. If there is a congestion for a vital good the solution is not to increase prices but increase capacity. That is build a new hospital, or in the matter of congestion, build new highways, railroads and metros.

Arguing that prices should be allowed to increase to spur new investment (in hospitals or roads etc) is irrelevant as those things are not operating on a free market so it won't work, and more importantly, I do not want to live in a society where the price of those things are decided by the market. Call me a commie bastard if you like. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 07:05:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

I remain suspicious of this alliance. I can't help but fear that for all their pretty talk the Moderate party is really just doing the best they can to make sure that as much money goes to the wealthiest segment of society as they can get away with. The alliance did push the traditional "welfare recipients are a bunch of lazy cheats and lowering payments will lead to more people with work" before the election.
---
Roads are not like a hospital emergency room. There are alternatives, like public transport. I don't think increasing road capacity is really a solution for traffic congestion in major cities. There is only so much space to go around. Where are you going to put all those new roads? Roads are not a vital good when you have a public transport system! More roads also typically yields more traffic rather than improving congestion. So more polluting vehicles in city centres, which the inhabitants of the same with some right disfavour. If one believes (as I do) that dense urban areas are preferable to suburban sprawl with long commuting distances, cars ought to be kept out of the cities so they remain a reasonable place to live.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 08:47:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

Re: The argument is that roads are a good like any other and the price of using it should be decided by supply and demand.

Supply and demand are in balance anyway, with the total price (including non-monetary) including the inconvenience, additional fuel consumption, etc., caused by the congestion. I think that the argument is better staged in terms of differing negative externalities of driving at different times, noting that differential monetary pricing is a non-destructive transfer of tokens, while congestion destroys actual fuel and slices of human lifetime.

It is often argued that X should have a lower price because the poor will be more affected, but this applies with similar force to all non-luxury goods X. In all instances, to act on this would distort prices and incentives. This suggests that it is far better to address inequalities more directly, on the income side.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 06:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

I hope so. The leftists showed they are corrupt. The new government haven't had the chance to be corrupt yet.

Also this new government is composed of four parties instead of one which means the pm will not be a president anymore. This means there will be several competing centres of power withinh the government. This will give some checks and balances that should stop the worst excesses.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 05:43:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

I may agree with the analysis here but I have to note that all breaktrhough/disruptive technologies are less efficient than already mature ones.

You need dedicated "starry eyed" early adopters to make the economics work. And Maglev has significant potential advantages by the reduced friction especially if combined with wings in ground effect tunnels.

Orthodoxy is not a religion.

by BalkanIdentity (balkanid _ at _ google.com) on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 12:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

You need dedicated "starry eyed" early adopters to make the economics work.

But often even that is not enough. Some concepts just don't work economically. In that case, the starry-eyed waste money, often public money, which is really bad if it could have been spent on something else less impressive but still modern and sensible. A modern high-speed train, or a suburban train locomotive with the latest permanent-magnet synchronous motors under its hood, or a track-changing tramway, or a linear motor subway might cause less starry eyes, but they are no less modern and make much more sense.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 05:37:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

And Maglev has significant potential advantages by the reduced friction

Actually, while mechanical friction is reduced, a larger magnetic friction takes its stead.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 06:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

Do you really expect anything but big corruption scandals when the new government sells at a very low price state assets to their friends?

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 01:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

For fairness, note that 430 km/h reached on 40 km and 350 km/h reached on 200 km is comparing apples and oranges. Maglev could easily reach speeds above 500 km/h over longer distances, while a top speed of at most 250 km/h is realistic for normal rail airport shuttles over such short distances [though 350 is technically possible].

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 05:30:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

Of course, it really shines when considering intercontinental routes in evacuated tubes. Maglev systems can then beat supersonic jets by a wide margin.

But (as usual), this is out of reach because of cost, which is to say the cost of things, which is to say, in large measure, the cost of making things. We're still very bad at that.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 06:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

Of course, it really shines when considering intercontinental routes in evacuated tubes. Maglev systems can then beat supersonic jets by a wide margin.

Could you bring more on that? I have the faint memory of there being some upper limit to maglev speed, which is under that of pneumatic tube railway, but maybe it was only due to air drag.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 at 03:55:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

'Time-sharing' is a very interesting concept that got me thinking. Thanks.

Rail tracks and the surrounding area could be thought of as 'not in use' most of the time. Even a busy network like the London Underground means that all trains only "cover" a section of track for a few dozen seconds each day.

So this is underused dedicated space, like the roofs of factories or car parks at night or (supply your own). Some innovative thinking should go into potential synergy energy.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 11:49:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

Oddly enough - David Cameron, and his starry-eyed shadow transport minister (whose name I have forgotten) have been talking up a UK Maglev project for the proposed London/Scotland high speed line.

It's no less silly here it would be elsewhere. A conventional TGV - or better, a Northern extension to the Channel Tunnel line - makes a lot more sense.

Meanwhile New Scientist has been reporting the imminent arrival of room temperature superconductors for a while - but obviously they're still not here yet.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 26th, 2006 at 07:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

Ah, the northern British high-speed line saga... this is something infamous in railway circles. Especially after someone decided that it shall be done one the cheap by four-tracking and upgrading the West Coast Mainline, but upgrade proved much more complicated and expensive than foreseen... in fact so much so that a new line would have been cheaper. Expect another decade of the idea being tossed around, and only then another ten years of squabbling with locals about the route, before any earth is moved... if at all.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 05:41:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 0)

The UK and railways... Who was saying what about early adopters?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 05:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Maglev Mirage (none / 1)

New surface routes have large costs (in real terms, to say nothing of money) because they must displace whatever is there now. Tunnels, of course, avoid this cost, and also avoid noise along rights of way, scars through ecosytems, many potential accidents, and so on.

But (as usual), this is out of reach because of cost, which is to say the cost of things, which is to say, in large measure, the cost of making things. We're still very bad at that.

(Gee, I could repeat this in so many contexts...)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Sep 27th, 2006 at 06:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Maglev Mirage | 78 comments (73 topical, 5 editorial, 0 hidden)

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