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Excellent post, but I'd still like to see the "European state of mind" defined.  Unless it's nothing more than "aware of consequences"?
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 06:59:47 AM EST
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The European State of Mind doesn't exist any more that "the" European Values (and we saw what that was like during the Great Cartoon Controversy).

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 07:02:09 AM EST
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Thanks.  That was sort of my point.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 07:05:45 AM EST
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Fredouil alludes to this, initially, with his comment

Europeans are getting post-national, post-religious

By post-religious, I presume he means quite secular in a sense that goes beyond attitudes about religion, and refers also to the role (and lack thereof) that religion actually plays in the average life of Marcel Bidochon, Jens Jensen or Hans Schmidt. Which explains why you'll rarely see European (some countries excepted, on the periphery even if, in the case of Poland, quite important) leaders make comments about how religious they are, because it simply does not play, whereas in America politicians run to the podium to declaim how religious they are, because it does.

By post-national, I presume he means a generalized disdain (again, there are exceptions, usually on the far right) for the jingo-istic and other trappings of the sort of rampant nationalism America has tended to display of late, a commitment to multilateral institutions and peace, as well as a general feeling that soft power, diplomacy and commercial advantage far outweigh military might in the general rightful scheme of international relations and our respective country's role in those. Which is translated, for instance, in our relatively small defence budget, as opposed to America's, which represents, to it alone, fully half the entire world's.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:54:36 AM EST
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Heh, you're leaving out the Christian Democrats.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:58:47 AM EST
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Oh yeah, I forgot. Bayrou.

He's polling, what, 8%?

Not quite what Arlette & friends on the other side of the left and center, but who knows, maybe the tendance will change.

Third-way - has a bad name, in France at any rate. That is, among the mainstream.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:12:27 AM EST
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No, I mean the largest group of MEPs in the European Parliament is not post-national and not post-religious.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:17:51 AM EST
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My mistake. Was refering to oldfrog's reference to Bayrou and the UDF as being more along the lines of christian democrat. They are not in that eu parliamentary grouping, though, the UMP is, which quite frankly would have to be seen as a marriage of convenience given that UMP and christianism have relatively little, if anything, to do with each other. Have to say, though to a lesser extent, same about Forza Italia - there are Christians in the party, but certainly it is not a christian-oriented party.

CD is a heritage, that grouping also includes purely conservative (and secular) parties, like the UMP.


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 02:20:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Europeans are getting post-national, post-religious

Well, except that they're not.

All of the things you say are indeed true of some Europeans in some European countries, but as we have repeatedly demonstrated here, there is less commonality among European approaches to all of those issues than people like to believe.  People see the Europe they want to see.  Yours sounds very nice.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:15:22 AM EST
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You're right about the facts on the ground™, but I think he's probably right about the trajectory. Not to say that we can't be knocked off that path ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:18:19 AM EST
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Not to say that we can't be knocked off that path

Indeed.  We were....

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:19:54 AM EST
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Oh, I don't know. I'd say the long-term trend is still correct. You're just going through a bad couple of decades.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:21:30 AM EST
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I am not sure I agree, maybe the good couple of decades ended two decades ago.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:25:45 AM EST
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Three decades ago.

I'd say the last significant bit of truly progressive legislation in the US was passed, in bipartisan fashion and signed into law by a Republican president, in 1972, with the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts and the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency.

American "liberals"/(self-described left) think today of Jimmy Carter as a left President. He wasn't. Religiosity in the oval office, deregulation in the economy, beginning of the second cold war (US military arms build-up).

And we know what they've done since...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 02:24:17 PM EST
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One can only hope.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:27:12 AM EST
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