Free minds, not hair. | 101 comments (101 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

I really don't know. My own relationship with God is sort of anthropological at best.

The women I've known who wear the hijab (some of them are Arabs, some are Asian, some are African and some are blonde-haired-blue-eyed Americans) have different ideas of what constitutes hijab, and different reasons for wearing it. All I've been able to surmise is that, for most of them, this decision is personal.

A number of non-veiled women I know can envision a time when they will decide to wear it; when I asked one friend and colleague why she doesn't wear it, she said she just didn't feel God required it of her at this point in her life, but she indicated that it's possible that feeling will change someday.

I also have a very good friend who started wearing the hijab in the '90s, when there was a big veiling trend in Egypt, and then she took it off a few years later.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 08:46:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This touches (4.00 / 2)

I have a very good friend, from Amsterdam, married to another friend of mine from Peshawar, PK, whose family I happen to know quite well, having spent time with them in Peshawar and in and around Lahore in the late 80's. Her brother was also a very good friend of mine and roommate for three years.

We all went to university together (international school in the US).

Now, as it happens, when Rudi got married to my roommate's sister (and we are talking about middle-class Pakistani society here, which is to say quite wealthy by PK standards) no one from the family was present. They disapproved greatly. Her brother was very angry, still is. Won't talk to me either. I chose sides.

Women in Peshawar do not go outside without armed escort, family members, fathers, uncles, brothers. And obviously, they have no choice about wearing veils or not. They usually don't have choice about who they marry either, or what they do for careers (easy, they don't do careers, they stay at home).

That's what we're talking about. Not scarves around one's hair, but the social environment hijab represents and which is counter to modern values (well, at least those values as progressively fought for, in the West since the 17th century and elsewhere as well).

Shaema does not wear the veil now, she never did unless back home in PK, which I found odd when I saw her there given how I knew her in the US. Last I heard, she hasn't been back to PK in nearly 20 years. And if you think this is an exception, it is not, it is the rule in that part of the world, which isn't, incidentally, anywhere near Saudi Arabia.

They live in Indonesia with their two sons, I haven't seen them for seven years so I don't know if there's been a reconciliation since or not, but 12 years already was pretty long.

Funny thing is, I can tell you she'd likely be chuckling a bit at this debate. And she laughed quite hard at those American women who took to the veil (we knew a few) "on their own".

Anecdote? Sure. But everything about this subject is anecdote. Seeing 90% men on the streets of Peshawar though - that was not anecdotal, nor was the 50,000 women who protested in Paris about this stuff 3-4 years ago.

And yet we keep buying into the multi-cultural, "it's all good" frame of the post-modern left, the same left which has done nothing to advance poverty issues, or social justice issues, or economic equity issues, anywhere in the anglo-american world. Perhaps this is yet another diversion to distract from that lack of accomplishment?

My own observation, in watching the left, in particular in Anglo-american environments, deal with this issue is that ideologically, the "leftism" of the post-modern sort most popular in the anglo-american world, is no match for islamicism in terms of ideological rigor and vigor.

Fortunately, there are other branches of the same tree, and with a bit of pruning, those branches may come back to life as well.

Love the diary, thought-provoking if I don't agree with the point of view....

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 09:09:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This touches (4.00 / 2)

Are you trying to say that thinking a headscarf ban is stupid and counter-productive is an endorsement of the Peshwari cultural mores?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 09:43:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This touches (4.00 / 3)

Indirectly, yes.

I understand both your argument ("can't legislate morality, it's counterproductive") and the diarist's ("can't we all get along, this is a freedom of expression issue").

But at root, I disagree with both.

In the "can't legislate morality" case, I agree, we cannot legislate the content of morality. But we can influence (or reduce that influence, as in this case) one group's attempts to forcibly impose their set of morality upon another, largely unwilling group.

An example, perhaps a bit more extreme in content but all the same along the same lines: we might not be able to get men to stop thinking it is acceptible to beat their wives (and yes, imams do preach this and have been expelled from France for this), but this doesn't mean we should simply stand back and accept that they do so. There are very good public policy reasons not to accept this, not to mention moral reasons. Similarly, we might not convince islamists living in London to stop wanting to force their daughters or sisters to wear a veil when they go to school, but when we legislate that no one can wear one at school, we're supporting those majority who do not want to wear it, but are forced to.

So no your opinion does not directly support this patriarchal treatment of women, but indirectly, in many cases, it does.

I also get the freedom of expression argument, but as a matter of course, as long as we're all in a cohesive society, with strong solidarity mechanisms, where I help you and you help me under agreed-upon conditions (almost as a contract) as is the case in France (and should be moreso), there must be a mutual respect of individual and community. Community supports the individual, and the individual adheres to community standards.

And what those standards are is a matter of interpretation and taste. But if there are standards, there are standards, and those dictate the limits of acceptable expression. The limits have a political determinant of course, and there needs to be respect for proper minority rights under the universal declaration of human rights. But end of day, if you chose to live outside of the limits of acceptable expression, you break that contract which underpins solidarity, just as in undermining the mechanisms of solidarity, you break the contract which underpins cohesion. It's a two-way street.

I personally side with those who would strengthen both cohesion and solidarity, for in my view, you cannot have the one without the other, and this is exactly what we see in Europe today. Declining cohesion, and the so-called welfare state is under attack.

This is not a coincidence.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 12:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This touches (none / 0)

("can't we all get along, this is a freedom of expression issue")

That really is not what I've been trying to say.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 01:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This touches (none / 0)

I know I am vastly oversimplifying your point of view here, and it is unfair of me to do so because in truth, you have (at least as far as I see) a comprehensive approach to this issue, 90% of which I am in full agreement with, ie the larger problem to tackle is underneath the symbol, it may be in some cases an issue (we may disagree on the extent to which it is) and in these cases it might need to be addressed.

Am I inaccurate though to presume the standard "freedom of expression" formulation, having nothing necessarily to do with being a symbol of oppression of women, as seen in the discussion you were having with Helen?

That's really the only bone to pick I have, though it's a rather important one in Europe these days (perhaps far less so elsewhere).

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 17th, 2007 at 11:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This touches (none / 0)

Sorry for the late response. Been sort of out of commission.

My argument at its most simple, I guess, is that a singleminded fixation on banning or restricting use of the the hijab is at best counterproductive and divisive, and at worst (as in Bavaria) nakedly racist.

Freedom of expression may be implicit in that, but it's not the core of the argument at all.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Jan 18th, 2007 at 03:29:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This touches (4.00 / 3)

Thanks for this heartfelt and thoughtful comment.

That's what we're talking about. Not scarves around one's hair, but the social environment hijab represents and which is counter to modern values (well, at least those values as progressively fought for, in the West since the 17th century and elsewhere as well).

Well, that social environment is what we should be talking about, but too often we end up talking about the symbols instead. And that presents a particular problem when those "symbols" don't represent the same thing to everyone involved.

And yet we keep buying into the multi-cultural, "it's all good" frame of the post-modern left, the same left which has done nothing to advance poverty issues, or social justice issues, or economic equity issues, anywhere in the anglo-american world. Perhaps this is yet another diversion to distract from that lack of accomplishment?

I really don't think this is a fair representation of what I've been trying to do in this diary, and I'm sorry if you see it that way. I'd say, actually, that the obsession with the symbol is the distraction, because poverty and social justice and economic equity and a whole host of other issues are still not being discussed.

And as a woman myself, I also have to wonder why both sides of the argument insist on using us women as the battleground for fighting their cultural/religious wars. Want to prove you've established a genuine Islamic state? What's the easiest way to show that? Slap a hijab requirement on all the women! Want to prove you're "enlightened" and "modern"? What's the easiest way to show that? Yank the headscarves off all the women!

It really shouldn't be about that.

My heart goes out to your friends, partly because this is a story I have heard before, many times, from people very close to me. But if you think the problems they face are unique to the Muslim world, you are mistaken. And if you think those problems are universal in the Muslim world, you are also mistaken. Your friends' situation is heartbreaking, and familiar, but it is also an indication that fundamentally, as I said right in the beginnning, hijab is not the problem. And it should not be the only thing we talk about.

Peace.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jan 16th, 2007 at 01:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Free minds, not hair. | 101 comments (101 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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