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Yup, it has become a specifically US American phenomenon. The religious zealots, thank God, left Europe when they feared that their kids might become influenced and thus, in their eyes, corrupted by the exposure to a too liberal European culture. "The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
Evangelical Christianity, born in England and nurtured in the United States, is leaving home. Most evangelicals now live in China, South Korea, India, Africa and Latin America, where they are transforming their religion. In various ways, they are making evangelical Christianity at once more conservative and more liberal. They are infusing it with local traditions and practices. And they are even sending "reverse missionaries" to Europe and the United States.
Most evangelicals now live in China, South Korea, India, Africa and Latin America, where they are transforming their religion. In various ways, they are making evangelical Christianity at once more conservative and more liberal. They are infusing it with local traditions and practices. And they are even sending "reverse missionaries" to Europe and the United States.
don't we normally associate people screaming gibberish that they claim comes from the ether with severe schizophrenia?
yup
fun though! 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
The first settlers to the US were religiuos zealots who had left England to emigrate to the Netherlands. There they lived in the area of Leiden, where they were allowed to freely profess their creed and to become prosperous citizens within the larger community.
After twenty years, however, the elders of the Puritans became aware that their kids were getting exposed too much to the influence of Dutch liberal culture, and thus to ideological corruption of their dogmatic beliefs.
They began to fear for the survival of their flock, and specially for the souls of their children, in this too benign political and religious environment. Therefore they decided to petition Queen Elizabeth for a patent to emigrate to the newly found territories in the western hemisphere. This request was granted and the English Puritans packed their tools in the Netherlands and went to Plymouth and embarked on the Mayflower to sail towards the new territories.
Facit: The early US immigrants were not religiously persecuted people who had left Europe because they were looking for freedom to profess their cult, but instead, religious zealots and social misfits who were afraid and incapable to live amidst other Christians in a tolerant society.
In the Americas they founded a theocracy in the new colonies and were only stopped by the English colonial authorities to perform the worst rituals of their collective crazyness. But even the English troops could not hinder the Puritans to perform mass slaughter of the next wave of religious zealots who followed them - the Quakers, whose only difference consisted in the fact that they wore hats and (for economical reasons) clothes made of crude, thick cow hides at all times and addressed each other with 'Thou' and referred to things as 'thine'.
A small difference but different enough to get hanged by our 'good' Puritans.
Quakers getting whipped by the Boston Taliban:
Quakers getting hanged by the Christian Taliban:
Two Quakers were executed on October 27th, in Boston, after reentering the colony, despite having been expelled. One year later, a third person, a women named Mary Dyer, was also hanged, after returning to the colony. She had initially been spared execution.
More Quakers accused by Puritans and hanged
Jefferson wrote about the Quaker laws:
"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819
The original name for Christian fundamentalism was premillenial dispensationalism, and that is still the name of its theology. Premillenial dispensationalism—which must be seen as a new religion, an off-shoot of Christianity, like Mormonism—was invented by the Anglo-Irish evangelist John Nelson Darby at the end of the 19th century. (The emigration of Puritans from Europe to escape established churches occurred centuries before that, of course.) I believe that the main reason why premillenial dispensationalism took root in America wasn't the Puritan influence on American Christianity, but rather the lack of an established church, which would have suppressed this heresy. A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
As for whether one should call premillennial dispensationalism a form of Christianity or not, this is controversial. I know that most liberal evangelicals prefer to say it does fall under Christianity, but I think that is just because of the liberal predilection for inclusiveness. You should remember that fundies do not consider non-fundamentalists to be Christians. Thus, I think the tables should be turned on them.
I do not deny in the least that there are significant Puritan influences on evangelicalism taken broadly (the latter derives from the former, as far as I am aware) which, among other things, gave rise to the revivalist movements. A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
At least the fundies do not say that they received any new revelations: just that they figured out the correct method for interpreting the Bible. Thus I would concede that there is no fact of the matter of whether fundies are Christians or not: denying that they are is something more akin to a political move. A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
Let's agree to disagree. But there is the following problem.
Personally, I think that claiming a new revelation is one of the ways you step over the line. I haven't thought much about it and could be wrong, but according to your "dangerous" line of thought, one could argue that Muslims are Christians. After all, the prophet Mohammed accepted the Bible as the word of God just like the prophet Joseph Smith did, and Muslims claim, I believe, just as the Jews do, that they worship the same God as Christians do. The Unitarians are Christians, so Muslims are not disqualified for rejecting the Trinity. I don't know this for a fact (and don't have time to check Wikipedia because I have to go out), but it seems to me that since the Unitarians reject the Trinity, they must reject the divinity of Christ, too. That means, so far as I can see, that according to your line of thought, if the Unitarians are Christians, then so are the Muslims.
Gnostics didn't claim they had new revelation. They had their own gospels that were written at about the same time as the canonical ones. A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
That's absolutely true. To me it qualifies them for the term of sectarian rather than something other than Christians themselves.
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
So do they set up their own churches? If so, are they officially recognized?
I must say, I find this very disturbing. Also, I guess there must be fundamentalists in Finland as well, since I ran into a group of them in the U-Bahn in Munich once. (Although it is possible they just acted like fundies, without holding their theology: I didn't sit down to discuss theology with them.) A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
I had no idea that the Plymouth Brethren were still around. Interesting.
I have a pet theory by the way that fundamentalism can only take root in a society where the prevailing philosophical culture is empiricist/liberal (Hume, Mill) but not in which it is rationalist/communitarian (Kant, Hegel). The anglophone tradition took the position that religion cannot be understood rationally, whereas German idealism attempted to reconcile science, philosophy, and religion (i.e., Christianity). Philosophy and religion never divorced themselves in Germany as they did in Britain. Fundamentalism is the product of that divorce. A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
So, does that mean that fascism and radical racism can only take root in a society which is 'rationalist/communitarian (Kant/Hegel' :)
Twisted Cross
Or if we prefer Catholicism, how about the twentieth century Spanish incarnation of the Church Militant eagerly supporting the crusade against modernity.
As for Catholicism, I don't think that anyone has ever argued that Catholicism has an easy relationship with modernity. (I was raised Russian Orthodox, and I think that Orthodoxy has an even less easy relationship with modernity.) In Hegel's view, the impetus that produced modernity was Protestant. Catholicism accommodated itself to the new conditions (not entirely successfully, some would say), but did not play a role in producing them. A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
I suppose it is fair to say that there is a correlation between rationalism/communitarianism and fascism (the Nazis), but I would claim that anything in Kant or Hegel only condemns fascism, rather than supporting it. The way I would look at it is that German idealism and Nazism have some common antecedents, the way that liberalism and fundamentalism do. (By the way, after Hegel's death, there was a gradual decline in German philosophical culture (and the effort to regain that culture is being carried out mainly in the US, not in Germany) which I still don't understand. Thus, at the time when Germany started taking its wrong turn (after Bismarck's death), the German idealist tradition was not very influential any more.)
I would consider American slavery to be a form of radical racism, wouldn't you? And then there is the genocide of the native Americans... Thus I don't think rationalist/communitarian societies have a monopoly on that.
As a final note, one might speculate that fundamentalism might be the anglophone equivalent of fascism, as you were getting at. Certainly, when I look for something comparable to fundamentalism's anti-rationalism in modern Europe, the first thing I think about is the Nazis. A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
In my view, that's the central myth of liberal Protestantism, and wrong. While biblical literalism was not that strange for his age, it was still a move aimed backwards not forwards, it included resurrecting the darkest Dark Ages in form of religious persecution and (real) witch hunts (which, contrary to popular wisdom, were worst not in the Middle Age), anti-Jewish pogroms (Luther became a rather crude anti-semite in his old age), and establishment of opressive theocratic communities (Calvin's original wasn't any better than Salem). The learning process libral Protestants ascribe to Luther could really start only once religious absolutism led to disillusion and (unlike during all previous Western Christian internal religious wars) failed to achieve victory by arms. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
In England, there is even a small network of private creationist schools, who got a permit with Bliar's approval. In Germany, they even have a party, which received 0.23% in the last elections. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
what is this historical gibberish supposed to mean? Religious zealots left for America in the early seventeenth century. I could just as easily characterize Europe as inherently fascist and imperialist or ultra conservative or dirt poor, or feudal or hellishly chaotic, or racist, or whatever other reasons that people had to come to America.
It is only possible to have Christian fundamentalism after Darwin. Before that, it simply didn't exist. This is not to say that you cannot trace the fundies back to the Puritans that came from Europe. However "nutty" the Puritans may have been, the nuttiness of the fundies is of an order of magnitude greater. The reason is that before the rise of modern science, it wasn't all that nutty to take the Bible literally. A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
I do accept that those living 300 years ago most probably could not see the world through the eyes of those of us who have the experience of modernity (hell, there are people living today who don't even seem capable of it) but I also have a very strong suspicion that not everyone was an innocent sheep either. Many people have a sense of right and wrong not entirely based on our social or religious upbringing. While it was socially acceptable to do x,y and z, I think that it is unlikely no one had the good sense to question the legitimacy of those actions. It's just that those who did were punished, intimidated into silence, or at the very least, were not writing official documents. :)
What I'm saying is that while people have only been trusted to think for themselves in recent times, they have had the capability of doing for a very long time. And I am sure there were people who thought the Puritains were nuts. For example, those who sent them here.... Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
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