Culture Wars | 61 comments (61 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

I'm not going to argue the toss with you, but you've got the stress wrong on a number of things there. One is that Darby (who died around 1880) founded something called "premillennial dispensationalism" as a movement, when it's the name of a doctrine held by the movement he did found, the Plymouth Brethren. Another is to think the Plymouth Brethren are only American when they were first Irish and British (there are still PBs in the British Isles). Another is to consider this Christian splinter group as a completely new religion like Mormonism, which is a great overstatement. Most of all, though the influence of dispensationalism was considerable, you're mistaken to consider that modern Evangelicalism derives from it in the mechanical way you describe. Modern fundamentalist eschatology is hugely influenced by it, but in many other ways modern Evangelicalism does draw on an older tradition that can at least be partly traced back to the Puritans (who, btw, did not all up and leave England for the New World), and certainly to the revivalist movements of the C18 and C19.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:41:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

I accept your first two points, which correct my oversimplifications.

As for whether one should call premillennial dispensationalism a form of Christianity or not, this is controversial. I know that most liberal evangelicals prefer to say it does fall under Christianity, but I think that is just because of the liberal predilection for inclusiveness. You should remember that fundies do not consider non-fundamentalists to be Christians. Thus, I think the tables should be turned on them.

I do not deny in the least that there are significant Puritan influences on evangelicalism taken broadly (the latter derives from the former, as far as I am aware) which, among other things, gave rise to the revivalist movements.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

I think this is a case of No True Scotsman. Throughout its history, CHristianity encompassed great ideological variation, though regularly 'reduced' in hunts for heretics. (BTW hereabouts, even Mormons are considered a Christian sect.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Very inclusive. Of course, Mormons like to present themselves as Christians, but this is controversial in the US. Personally, I don't see how anyone can think that the idea that a major revelation occurred after the death of Christ is not heretical, and thus places this sect outside the bounds of Christianity. (If Hungarians consider Mormonism to be a Christian sect, I get the impression that Hungarians do not take Christianity very seriously any more.)

At least the fundies do not say that they received any new revelations: just that they figured out the correct method for interpreting the Bible. Thus I would concede that there is no fact of the matter of whether fundies are Christians or not: denying that they are is something more akin to a political move.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:35:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Hey, over the past 2000 years, Christians used to battle over whether Jesus was a virgin or had Mary Magdalene as wife, whether Jesus was a human son of God or God himself or both, whether the Old Testament is the work of evil or the prediction of Jesus, whether private ownership is evil or should rich bishops and aristocrats be respected, whether there are multiple centres or was Rome ordained to be the single one, whether the assembly of Western Rome priests is the Holy Ghost and thus instructive in maintaining and developing the understanding of God, or should everyone be allowed provided that they go back to the roots, whether one priest (the Pope) is infallible and so on. A new revelation doesn't look that strange to me (especially considering the teologists of the Catholic Church and the gnostics), and as for heretic, hell yeah, all Protestants resp. Catholics would count as such, had either side won the 30 Years War or the earlier the Schmalkalden War.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

A new revelation doesn't look that strange to me...

Let's agree to disagree. But there is the following problem.

Personally, I think that claiming a new revelation is one of the ways you step over the line. I haven't thought much about it and could be wrong, but according to your "dangerous" line of thought, one could argue that Muslims are Christians. After all, the prophet Mohammed accepted the Bible as the word of God just like the prophet Joseph Smith did, and Muslims claim, I believe, just as the Jews do, that they worship the same God as Christians do. The Unitarians are Christians, so Muslims are not disqualified for rejecting the Trinity. I don't know this for a fact (and don't have time to check Wikipedia because I have to go out), but it seems to me that since the Unitarians reject the Trinity, they must reject the divinity of Christ, too. That means, so far as I can see, that according to your line of thought, if the Unitarians are Christians, then so are the Muslims.

Gnostics didn't claim they had new revelation. They had their own gospels that were written at about the same time as the canonical ones.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:45:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 3)

fundies do not consider non-fundamentalists to be Christians

That's absolutely true. To me it qualifies them for the term of sectarian rather than something other than Christians themselves.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

Well, mainstream European Catholics, Calvinists and Lutherans nowadays accept each other, but can be just as exclusive towards any other 'cults', be them some fundie ranters or harmless charismatic ravers or autonomous communities forming in their midst.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:01:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Indeed. 19C Evangelicals came from diverse sources including Baptists and Methodists, the former also gave birth to the Adventists, and these interacting diffuse movements gave birth to 20C fundamentalism (and also creationism).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Isn't creationism an essential part of Christian fundamentalism? My understanding is that there were two main developments that evangelicals reacted against, thus giving rise to fundamentalism: Darwinism and modern techniques of textual analysis and Biblical exegesis that were pioneered by the Germans.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:12:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

Creationism certainly is an essential tenet of Christian fundamentalism. An interesting (and otherwise moving) book to read in this regard is Father and Son by Edmund Gosse. Gosse, an English scholar who later became Librarian of the House of Lords, was born in the C19 into the Plymouth Brethren, of which his parents were among the early saints. His father was a natural scientist of some renown, and spent his life trying to prove scientifically that Darwin, whom he greatly respected, was mistaken. There are still fundies trying to do this, I know one and once knew another.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

My only reason to separate out creationism was to point out that it came along at that time. It is an essential part, but it should also be considered a semi-autonomous sub-belief-system, one with its own tenets and massive literature that theorises about the gaps or the correct literal interpretation and tries to prove it (or at least disprove science), something that goes further than just declaring the Bible history (='biblical literalism'). Hence creationism doesn't apply to earlier Christians who were biblical literalists.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

It just occurred to me that a way to avoid confusion and misunderstanding on this matter is to reserve "fundamentalist" for "post-Darwinian" literalists, so that Luther and Calvin were literalists, but not fundamentalists.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

But that is too restrictive. The word fundamentalism can describe any where-have-we-gone-wrong, back-to-the-fundaments view, so I rather stick with the 'modern' qualifier or the (historically correct) capitalised Fundamentalist form.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:05:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

The traditions go back further to the early days of the reformation. In fact, I see hardcore evangelicals as a marriage of populist religious enthusiasm and millenarianism. Both of those, often combined, have seemed to come along on a regular basis in all the Abrahamic religions, whether we're talking Christians in the Byzantine empire, Jews in eighteenth century Poland, or present day Iraqis and US fundies. Or, seeing as we're talking religion here, perhaps I should put it this way:

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:14:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Culture Wars | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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