Culture Wars | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

A culture war this may be (although I think that is an exaggeration in itself, since the actions of Axel Springer do not reflect a popular movement), but it is wrong to suggest that it is similar to the culture war that exists in America.

In America, there are two main kinds of conservatives: "old fashioned" or "true" conservatives like Pat Buchanan, who may have bizarre ideas on some issues but are firmly placed within the European tradition. Then you have the "Christian" conservatives, who are not really conservatives at all, because they wish to radically transform the US, turning it into a Christian fundamentalist theocracy. Furthermore, these people are not really even Christians, since their theology has an eschatology radically different from that of all three main Christian sects. Their doctrine may be summarized as the rejection of reason itself, and they have been tremendously influential on right-wing American politics. Because they reject reason, rational debate with them is not possible (unlike the case with true conservatives), so that the only remaining possibility is cultural war.

Because Christian fundamentalism is a specifically American (or perhaps anglophone) phenomenon, Europe has only the first kind of conservative.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 01:15:17 PM EST

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Alexander says: "Because Christian fundamentalism is a specifically American (or perhaps anglophone) phenomenon, Europe has only the first kind of conservative."

Yup, it has become a specifically US American phenomenon. The religious zealots, thank God, left Europe when they feared that their kids might become influenced and thus, in their eyes, corrupted by the exposure to a too liberal European culture.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 02:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

Not true.

Evangelical Christianity, born in England and nurtured in the United States, is leaving home.
Most evangelicals now live in China, South Korea, India, Africa and Latin America, where they are transforming their religion. In various ways, they are making evangelical Christianity at once more conservative and more liberal. They are infusing it with local traditions and practices. And they are even sending "reverse missionaries" to Europe and the United States.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 02:53:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

Yes, the nutty missionaries has been showing up from time to time.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:07:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

And here at home there's a lot of fundy Asians. My only close up and personal experience with evangelicals came on a ski trip I took in college (a token sum for travel, housing and food - but you've got to politely endure a little bit of god-talk after dinner - ok - though the speaking in tongues scared the hell out of me - don't we normally associate people screaming gibberish that they claim comes from the ether with severe schizophrenia?). It was also my first time as a racial minority. Go around any area with large numbers of Koreans or Chinese in the US and you'll see countless evangelical churches. Same goes increasingly for Latinos.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:29:49 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

Extremely popular in (Western?) Europe among the Roma.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:33:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

don't we normally associate people screaming gibberish that they claim comes from the ether with severe schizophrenia?

yup

fun though!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 08:13:58 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

Sorry, you don't know your US history.

The first settlers to the US were religiuos zealots who had left England to emigrate to the Netherlands. There they lived in the area of Leiden, where they were allowed to freely profess their creed and to become prosperous citizens within the larger community.

After twenty years, however, the elders of the Puritans became aware that their kids were getting exposed too much to the influence of Dutch liberal culture, and thus to ideological corruption of their dogmatic beliefs.

They began to fear for the survival of their flock, and specially for the souls of their children, in this too benign political and religious environment. Therefore they decided to petition Queen Elizabeth for a patent to emigrate to the newly found territories in the western hemisphere. This request was granted and the English Puritans packed their tools in the Netherlands and went to Plymouth and embarked on the Mayflower to sail towards the new territories.

Facit: The early US immigrants were not religiously persecuted people who had left Europe because they were looking for freedom to profess their cult, but instead, religious zealots and social misfits who were afraid and incapable to live amidst other Christians in a tolerant society.

In the Americas they founded a theocracy in the new colonies and were only stopped by the English colonial authorities to perform the worst rituals of their collective crazyness. But even the English troops could not hinder the Puritans to perform mass slaughter of the next wave of religious zealots who followed them - the Quakers, whose only difference consisted in the fact that they wore hats and (for economical reasons) clothes made of crude, thick cow hides at all times and addressed each other with 'Thou' and referred to things as 'thine'.

A small difference but different enough to get hanged by our 'good' Puritans.

Quakers getting whipped by the Boston Taliban:

Quakers getting hanged by the Christian Taliban:

Two Quakers were executed on October 27th, in Boston, after reentering the colony, despite having been expelled. One year later, a third person, a women named Mary Dyer, was also hanged, after returning to the colony. She had initially been spared execution.

More Quakers accused by Puritans and hanged

Jefferson wrote about the Quaker laws:

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 at 12:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Christian fundamentalism always was a specifically anglophone phenomenon: it did not "become" so. I don't think there's much of a direct link between the religion of the "zealots" who "left Europe" and Christian fundamentalism.

The original name for Christian fundamentalism was premillenial dispensationalism, and that is still the name of its theology. Premillenial dispensationalism—which must be seen as a new religion, an off-shoot of Christianity, like Mormonism—was invented by the Anglo-Irish evangelist John Nelson Darby at the end of the 19th century. (The emigration of Puritans from Europe to escape established churches occurred centuries before that, of course.) I believe that the main reason why premillenial dispensationalism took root in America wasn't the Puritan influence on American Christianity, but rather the lack of an established church, which would have suppressed this heresy.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:12:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

I'm not going to argue the toss with you, but you've got the stress wrong on a number of things there. One is that Darby (who died around 1880) founded something called "premillennial dispensationalism" as a movement, when it's the name of a doctrine held by the movement he did found, the Plymouth Brethren. Another is to think the Plymouth Brethren are only American when they were first Irish and British (there are still PBs in the British Isles). Another is to consider this Christian splinter group as a completely new religion like Mormonism, which is a great overstatement. Most of all, though the influence of dispensationalism was considerable, you're mistaken to consider that modern Evangelicalism derives from it in the mechanical way you describe. Modern fundamentalist eschatology is hugely influenced by it, but in many other ways modern Evangelicalism does draw on an older tradition that can at least be partly traced back to the Puritans (who, btw, did not all up and leave England for the New World), and certainly to the revivalist movements of the C18 and C19.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:41:43 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

I accept your first two points, which correct my oversimplifications.

As for whether one should call premillennial dispensationalism a form of Christianity or not, this is controversial. I know that most liberal evangelicals prefer to say it does fall under Christianity, but I think that is just because of the liberal predilection for inclusiveness. You should remember that fundies do not consider non-fundamentalists to be Christians. Thus, I think the tables should be turned on them.

I do not deny in the least that there are significant Puritan influences on evangelicalism taken broadly (the latter derives from the former, as far as I am aware) which, among other things, gave rise to the revivalist movements.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

I think this is a case of No True Scotsman. Throughout its history, CHristianity encompassed great ideological variation, though regularly 'reduced' in hunts for heretics. (BTW hereabouts, even Mormons are considered a Christian sect.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Very inclusive. Of course, Mormons like to present themselves as Christians, but this is controversial in the US. Personally, I don't see how anyone can think that the idea that a major revelation occurred after the death of Christ is not heretical, and thus places this sect outside the bounds of Christianity. (If Hungarians consider Mormonism to be a Christian sect, I get the impression that Hungarians do not take Christianity very seriously any more.)

At least the fundies do not say that they received any new revelations: just that they figured out the correct method for interpreting the Bible. Thus I would concede that there is no fact of the matter of whether fundies are Christians or not: denying that they are is something more akin to a political move.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:35:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Hey, over the past 2000 years, Christians used to battle over whether Jesus was a virgin or had Mary Magdalene as wife, whether Jesus was a human son of God or God himself or both, whether the Old Testament is the work of evil or the prediction of Jesus, whether private ownership is evil or should rich bishops and aristocrats be respected, whether there are multiple centres or was Rome ordained to be the single one, whether the assembly of Western Rome priests is the Holy Ghost and thus instructive in maintaining and developing the understanding of God, or should everyone be allowed provided that they go back to the roots, whether one priest (the Pope) is infallible and so on. A new revelation doesn't look that strange to me (especially considering the teologists of the Catholic Church and the gnostics), and as for heretic, hell yeah, all Protestants resp. Catholics would count as such, had either side won the 30 Years War or the earlier the Schmalkalden War.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

A new revelation doesn't look that strange to me...

Let's agree to disagree. But there is the following problem.

Personally, I think that claiming a new revelation is one of the ways you step over the line. I haven't thought much about it and could be wrong, but according to your "dangerous" line of thought, one could argue that Muslims are Christians. After all, the prophet Mohammed accepted the Bible as the word of God just like the prophet Joseph Smith did, and Muslims claim, I believe, just as the Jews do, that they worship the same God as Christians do. The Unitarians are Christians, so Muslims are not disqualified for rejecting the Trinity. I don't know this for a fact (and don't have time to check Wikipedia because I have to go out), but it seems to me that since the Unitarians reject the Trinity, they must reject the divinity of Christ, too. That means, so far as I can see, that according to your line of thought, if the Unitarians are Christians, then so are the Muslims.

Gnostics didn't claim they had new revelation. They had their own gospels that were written at about the same time as the canonical ones.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:45:21 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 3)

fundies do not consider non-fundamentalists to be Christians

That's absolutely true. To me it qualifies them for the term of sectarian rather than something other than Christians themselves.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:12:31 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

Well, mainstream European Catholics, Calvinists and Lutherans nowadays accept each other, but can be just as exclusive towards any other 'cults', be them some fundie ranters or harmless charismatic ravers or autonomous communities forming in their midst.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:01:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Indeed. 19C Evangelicals came from diverse sources including Baptists and Methodists, the former also gave birth to the Adventists, and these interacting diffuse movements gave birth to 20C fundamentalism (and also creationism).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Isn't creationism an essential part of Christian fundamentalism? My understanding is that there were two main developments that evangelicals reacted against, thus giving rise to fundamentalism: Darwinism and modern techniques of textual analysis and Biblical exegesis that were pioneered by the Germans.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:12:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

Creationism certainly is an essential tenet of Christian fundamentalism. An interesting (and otherwise moving) book to read in this regard is Father and Son by Edmund Gosse. Gosse, an English scholar who later became Librarian of the House of Lords, was born in the C19 into the Plymouth Brethren, of which his parents were among the early saints. His father was a natural scientist of some renown, and spent his life trying to prove scientifically that Darwin, whom he greatly respected, was mistaken. There are still fundies trying to do this, I know one and once knew another.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

My only reason to separate out creationism was to point out that it came along at that time. It is an essential part, but it should also be considered a semi-autonomous sub-belief-system, one with its own tenets and massive literature that theorises about the gaps or the correct literal interpretation and tries to prove it (or at least disprove science), something that goes further than just declaring the Bible history (='biblical literalism'). Hence creationism doesn't apply to earlier Christians who were biblical literalists.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

It just occurred to me that a way to avoid confusion and misunderstanding on this matter is to reserve "fundamentalist" for "post-Darwinian" literalists, so that Luther and Calvin were literalists, but not fundamentalists.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

But that is too restrictive. The word fundamentalism can describe any where-have-we-gone-wrong, back-to-the-fundaments view, so I rather stick with the 'modern' qualifier or the (historically correct) capitalised Fundamentalist form.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:05:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

The traditions go back further to the early days of the reformation. In fact, I see hardcore evangelicals as a marriage of populist religious enthusiasm and millenarianism. Both of those, often combined, have seemed to come along on a regular basis in all the Abrahamic religions, whether we're talking Christians in the Byzantine empire, Jews in eighteenth century Poland, or present day Iraqis and US fundies. Or, seeing as we're talking religion here, perhaps I should put it this way:

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:14:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

There are still considerable and growing numbers of Evangelicals in Britain and the Netherlands, in particular.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:14:24 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Of what variety? Are they premillenial dispensationalists, i.e., fundies? There are evangelicals who are liberal in both the political and the religious senses of the term, like Jimmy Carter and Jim Wallis. Not all evangelicals are fundies, although the American corporate media nevertheless unfortunately usually uses the two terms as if they were synonymous.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:43:52 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

Fundies, real fundies, albeit not one third of the population. The Netherlands has its own Bible Belt.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

How are they organized? Aren't there established Churches in the Netherlands, like there are in Germany? I don't see how the hierarchy of an established Protestant or Calvinist church would allow the teaching of premillenial dispensationalist doctrine, because of its unorthodoxy.

So do they set up their own churches? If so, are they officially recognized?

I must say, I find this very disturbing. Also, I guess there must be fundamentalists in Finland as well, since I ran into a group of them in the U-Bahn in Munich once. (Although it is possible they just acted like fundies, without holding their theology: I didn't sit down to discuss theology with them.)

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:08:04 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

I don't know about the Netherlands, but in Britain the Federation of Independent Evangelical Churches and the Assemblies of God (Pentecostalist) have gradually been permeated by dispensationalist eschatology. Then there are still the Plymouth Brethren. And other sectarian groups either loosely based on neighbourhood and house prayer/Bible study groups, or on a more "cult" organisation. At least one of these last that I know of has very close contacts with similar Dutch groups. (That sect, btw, grew in the 1960s out of a Baptist Church).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:30:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

In the US, there is an active movement by dispensationalists to infiltrate mainline Protestant congretations, turn the congretation against the Pastor, and get him replaced with a dispensationalist. But this does not get reported in the mainstream press.

I had no idea that the Plymouth Brethren were still around. Interesting.

I have a pet theory by the way that fundamentalism can only take root in a society where the prevailing philosophical culture is empiricist/liberal (Hume, Mill) but not in which it is rationalist/communitarian (Kant, Hegel). The anglophone tradition took the position that religion cannot be understood rationally, whereas German idealism attempted to reconcile science, philosophy, and religion (i.e., Christianity). Philosophy and religion never divorced themselves in Germany as they did in Britain. Fundamentalism is the product of that divorce.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:53:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

So, does that mean that fascism and radical racism can only take root in a society which is 'rationalist/communitarian (Kant/Hegel' :)

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:59:36 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

And let's not forget some of the currents in German twentieth century Protestantism:

Twisted Cross

Or if we prefer Catholicism, how about the twentieth century Spanish incarnation of the Church Militant eagerly supporting the crusade against modernity.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:18:47 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

Interesting book. I guess Protestantism is one of those common antecedents of Nazism and German idealism that I spoke of. In this sense: Luther held that you can only know God through faith, I believe. That is anti-rationalist. And anti-rationalism was constitutive of Nazism, in my opinion.

As for Catholicism, I don't think that anyone has ever argued that Catholicism has an easy relationship with modernity. (I was raised Russian Orthodox, and I think that Orthodoxy has an even less easy relationship with modernity.) In Hegel's view, the impetus that produced modernity was Protestant. Catholicism accommodated itself to the new conditions (not entirely successfully, some would say), but did not play a role in producing them.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

Haha. I think that is still an open question. For about two years after 9/11, I thought the Bush regime might morph into full-fledged fascism, but I don't find that likely any more. (It must be said, however, that some people, like Chalmers Johnson, think that America still might turn fascist in the next 10 or 20 years or so, as a result of strains caused by its militarism.)

I suppose it is fair to say that there is a correlation between rationalism/communitarianism and fascism (the Nazis), but I would claim that anything in Kant or Hegel only condemns fascism, rather than supporting it. The way I would look at it is that German idealism and Nazism have some common antecedents, the way that liberalism and fundamentalism do. (By the way, after Hegel's death, there was a gradual decline in German philosophical culture (and the effort to regain that culture is being carried out mainly in the US, not in Germany) which I still don't understand. Thus, at the time when Germany started taking its wrong turn (after Bismarck's death), the German idealist tradition was not very influential any more.)

I would consider American slavery to be a form of radical racism, wouldn't you? And then there is the genocide of the native Americans... Thus I don't think rationalist/communitarian societies have a monopoly on that.

As a final note, one might speculate that fundamentalism might be the anglophone equivalent of fascism, as you were getting at. Certainly, when I look for something comparable to fundamentalism's anti-rationalism in modern Europe, the first thing I think about is the Nazis.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

That's a compelling view, though, in my view both Calvin and Luther were fundamentalists, and the later more liberal views were a consequence of the 30 Years War.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

You're probably right. I haven't really studied either. But the point goes which I made elsewhere that when one calls them fundamentalists, one should use the word in scare quotes. Back in their day, the idea that the Bible should be taken literally was not all that crazy, since the tension between religion and science was not that great. Luther started a long learning process that ended with modernity, but he wasn't (fully) modern himself.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

Luther started a long learning process that ended with modernity, but he wasn't (fully) modern himself.

In my view, that's the central myth of liberal Protestantism, and wrong. While biblical literalism was not that strange for his age, it was still a move aimed backwards not forwards, it included resurrecting the darkest Dark Ages in form of religious persecution and (real) witch hunts (which, contrary to popular wisdom, were worst not in the Middle Age), anti-Jewish pogroms (Luther became a rather crude anti-semite in his old age), and establishment of opressive theocratic communities (Calvin's original wasn't any better than Salem). The learning process libral Protestants ascribe to Luther could really start only once religious absolutism led to disillusion and (unlike during all previous Western Christian internal religious wars) failed to achieve victory by arms.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

Thanks for clearing that up. I couldn't figure out the relevance of the Thirty Years War when you brought it up before. Like I said, I haven't read Luther, or studied much about him. I accept everything you say, and thank you for educating me. (I was never a fan of Calvin's, btw.)

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

I may have erred about the Netherlands Bible Belt being evangelist (don't know European-root fundies that much, I know fundamentalism only through creationism), but there are evangelicals with a US ideological source all over Europe, and it is indeed a worrying (and usually totally ignored) problem. Yes, they set up their own churches, they are officially recognised in most places, and they organise and proselytize and pass teleevangelists around, and write anti-science LTEs. They are not too visible due to relatively low numbers, but I consider them a contagious disease.

In England, there is even a small network of private creationist schools, who got a permit with Bliar's approval. In Germany, they even have a party, which received 0.23% in the last elections.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 3)

what is this historical gibberish supposed to mean? Religious zealots left for America in the early seventeenth century. I could just as easily characterize Europe as inherently fascist and imperialist or ultra conservative or dirt poor, or feudal or hellishly chaotic, or racist, or whatever other reasons that people had to come to America.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

The Puritain nuts who settled here were not an example of spontaneous generation. The came here from somewhere else. I dare say we could trace the Christian fundamentalists, like the Islamic and Jewish ones, all the way back to the place where they all started. Since then it's just been one struggle of the zealots agianst everyone else after another, resulting in one forced relocation and one mission constructed after another...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:48:39 PM EST
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Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

I wouldn't call the Puritans nuts. I do find their beliefs pretty alien, but they were not all that outlandish for the 17th century. And one can argue that in some ways, their interpretation of Christianity was more internally consistent than that of the established churches.

It is only possible to have Christian fundamentalism after Darwin. Before that, it simply didn't exist. This is not to say that you cannot trace the fundies back to the Puritans that came from Europe. However "nutty" the Puritans may have been, the nuttiness of the fundies is of an order of magnitude greater. The reason is that before the rise of modern science, it wasn't all that nutty to take the Bible literally.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Indeed modern fundamentalism was laid down as big-f-Fundamentalism in the first two decades of the 20th century.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:06:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

Yes, there is the Fundamentalism which is a modern phenomenon by definition, but I was also talking about those cults/sects/movements which from the beginning of the Abrahamic religions have claimed to be the one true truth, which have been fiercely dogmatic, and which have readily relied on violence to purge from the world those who eschew even the most superficial of their beliefs.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

I maintain that anyone who would burn me at the stake or even more perverse, drown me to prove I am not a witch, would qualify to me as nuts. They may not have been diagnosed as such then by the mainstream, but that's probably just because people are usually ruled by fear, by fear of being persecuted for speaking the truth.

I do accept that those living 300 years ago most probably could not see the world through the eyes of those of us who have the experience of modernity (hell, there are people living today who don't even seem capable of it) but I also have a very strong suspicion that not everyone was an innocent sheep either. Many people have a sense of right and wrong not entirely based on our social or religious upbringing. While it was socially acceptable to do x,y and z, I think that it is unlikely no one had the good sense to question the legitimacy of those actions. It's just that those who did were punished, intimidated into silence, or at the very least, were not writing official documents. :)

What I'm saying is that while people have only been trusted to think for themselves in recent times, they have had the capability of doing for a very long time. And I am sure there were people who thought the Puritains were nuts. For example, those who sent them here....

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 05:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

DoDo made a post above which appears to converge with yours. So I'm replying to you in case he doesn't.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 0)

Nothing to do with the difference between the two - that's about foreign policy. Buchanan is the very incarnation of the extreme Christian right on the culture war front. And while Pat Buchanan is certainly placed within a European tradition, it's not one of the better ones, given his love for Franco and somewhat more qualified appreciation for Mussolini. These are traditions I wish the Europeans would keep to themselves - his tradition is that of interwar right wing populist, authoritarian and semi-fascist fundy Catholicism. Frankly, I'd vote for the neocons over Pat any day - he wouldn't be as bad for the rest of the world, but he'd be much worse here at home i.e. where I live.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

The neocons and Christian fundamentalists are two completely different groups, although there alliance, together with bug business, is what defines the Bush wing of the Republican Party.

Buchanan is a right-wing Catholic, whereas Christian fundamentalism is an offshoot of American evangelicalism (and now largely dominates the latter). Right-wing Catholics and Christian fundamentalists may form alliances (the fundies picked up opposition to abortion from the Catholics to have something to agitate about, for example, and fundies may be fans of Mel Gibson's movies), but the two are two distinct groups, with completely different theologies.

This is not to disagree with your point that the right-wing Christians (of either or both varieties) would be worse at the helm than the neocons.

My post was confusing in that "Christian conservative" can have two meanings. One can be a Christian who is politically conservative, like Buchanan, or one can be a "Christian" who adopts a conservative (i.e., fundamentalist) approach to understanding Christianity. While Buchanan may hold certain "fascist" ideas, he does not reject reason, which is what the fundies do.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

the actions of Axel Springer do not reflect a popular movement

Neither Dutschke's assassin nor the local CDU campaigners were Axel Springer :-) In the sixties, there was definitely a culture war all over the West, in West Germany, Axel Springer and his papers were propagandists in it, not lone players.

I disagree with your narrow definition of the American cultural war as Christian fundies vs. everyone else. The a broader and long-time conflict trhat involved the civil rights movement, Roe vs. Wade, gun control, economics, entertainment etc., and roughly maps to liberal vs. conservative, is often called culture war. If you check Wikipedia, they describe different interpretations of a wider culture war. As it happens, Pat Buchanan himself features prominently in the article as a cultural warrior.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

The CDU/CSU was still playing culture wars to the hilt in the nineties - abortion, homosexuality, stem cells, Kinder statt Inder... I remember how surprised I was at just how similar much of the FAZ editorial stuff was to the American right when I began reading it a decade ago. It gave me a bit of sympathy for conservatives in the US who have to deal with the fact that the best foreign coverage comes from the socially liberal NYT.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 03:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (none / 1)

Your first point is well taken. Evidently, Axel Springer is still invested in that old culture war.

As for your second point, I guess you again correct an oversimplification of mine. There are indeed different fronts in the culture war in America, or different culture wars. What I was trying to say is that the nature of one of the American culture wars is different from anything that is likely to arise in Europe, since the essence of fundamentalism is the rejection of rationality. That is something that simply cannot be accomodated.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a culture war like in the US (4.00 / 2)

OK, we agree on that. I spent most of the first few years of my active internet life 'debating' (almost only US) creationists, I know what you mean.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jan 22nd, 2007 at 04:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Culture Wars | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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