Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
better economy means more travel

No, it's better to look for the marketista-disproving explanation in what ThatBritGuy said. The rise in passenger numbers was generated by private railways that lowered fares and raised capacity (including a rather significant wave of new vehicle purchases) while spending nothing on the infrastructure, e.g. all the difficult stuff was externalised from their viewpoint, and this (alongside infrastructure policies that aggravated it) led directly to the Railtrack financial disaster.

Are you forgetting the RER?

No, it is accounted for in SNCF's statistics.

Signaling is the one thing I'd expect to not get cost overruns, assuming it's been tested

That's the point: it wasn't tested. They thought wireless moving-block signalling (which will become ERTMS Level 3) can be implemented easily. But even today, it is still far away. What's more, the wireless fixed-block ERTMS Level 2 system, despite tests, caused cost overruns in multiple countries due to failure to achieve reasonably trouble-free operation (two Swiss lines, the Madrid-Barcelona high-speed line, Italian high-speed lines).

Switzerland may be a freight transit country, but it is also the country with the highest per capita train travel, so your point actually points in the opposite direction: the Swiss railway infrastructure achieved great reliability for dense passenger traffic despite a heavy freight traffic load.

Separation of infrastructure and operations is 'easy to understand' for simpleton marketista politicians, but the basic fact is, railways are not easy to understand, they are among the most complex systems operated in the economy. Railways aren't like roads, each of the planning, maintenance, and network coordination of fixed infrastucture and rolling stock is closely interwinded. I refer you back to the British example. Also, new freight terminals has nothing to do with separating passenger and freight business.

Per capita rail infrastructure investment figures touted around are difficult to interpret: on one hand, they depend on what works are counted as investment and what 'only' as maintenance, on the other hand, they often reflect a few megaprojects. Plus, it's one thing to build new lines and another to make up for decades of lack of proper maintenance. But, off-hand I give a figure of currently just above €100 per capita for Sweden, after a strong upward tendency (Botniabanan, Malmö and now Stockholm city tunnels boosted it), somewhat higher for Britain and Italy, and significantly lower for France and Germany after downward trends. (Though note, I'm not sure about the level of non-RFF rail infrastructure investments, expecially by regions.)

Regarding EU open access policy, part of it is already in force, there were the initial laws on institutional separation (executed in France by the creation of RFF in 1997), then the first (2001) and second (2004) railway packages that liberalised international traffic. The third package, with the thorny question of open-access in passenger service and domestic services, is now in second reading, and back when the Council formed its common position, France & allies only blocked the domestic liberalisation part (though that's the most important). Just a few days ago, while most of the Third Package (including international passenger service liberalisation from 2010) passed the EP vote, the joint Commission-relevant EP Committee proposal on internal liberalisation failed (narrowly, due to absent MEPs...) to get qualified majority.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 12:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it is accounted for in SNCF's statistics.

Huh, I was referring to your comment about Paris not having an equivalent suburban rail.

That's the point: it wasn't tested. They thought wireless moving-block signalling (which will become ERTMS Level 3) can be implemented easily.

I expected it hadn't been tested though I still can't quite believe the sheer arrogance of trying to implement ERTMS level 3. Several years later, Spain attempt to implement ERTMS level 2 has led to a 200 km/h limit on the line.

the Swiss railway infrastructure achieved great reliability for dense passenger traffic despite a heavy freight traffic load.

Yes, I know. Though it wasn't my intent to argue this either way. Merely that right now, the Swiss must focus their priorities on freight instead of HST if they don't want to get inundated by 40 tonne trucks. And I didn't want to argue the past because there are too many confusing factors. As you know, Switzerland's geography doesn't make an expansive highway system feasible.

Separation of infrastructure and operations is 'easy to understand' for simpleton marketista politicians,

Well, I'm not a simpleton or a marketista, though I can't figure out which would be more insulting. And I'm also used to figuring out highly complex non-linear systems. If I've missed some of the connections between operations and infrastructure, perhaps you can point them out to me. So far, I see the big problem as scheduling. It's why I don't believe in 'open access'.

Also, new freight terminals has nothing to do with separating passenger and freight business.

Doesn't it? Infrastructure funding in France is a political decision. Splitting up the businesses would expose them both to the politicians. There would no longer be just "railways" but "passenger rail" and "rail freight".

Additionally, if the rail freight business were autonomous, it might have more scope for innovation. With less power but more freedom, it might decide to restart the express freight business which La Poste abandoned.

Thank you for the summary about the current situation.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Thu Jan 25th, 2007 at 01:14:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh, I was referring to your comment about Paris not having an equivalent suburban rail.

Ahh, nevermind that. I understand what you mean.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Thu Jan 25th, 2007 at 01:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But actually, the RER is partly RATP (including the main bits of the busiest lines, A & B) and partly SNCF, so I'm not sure if it's properly accounted for in the SNCF figures.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 25th, 2007 at 04:00:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a point. But I'm not sure how many of the 450 million or so yearly passengers RATP has on its sections was also counted by SNCF on its part of lines A and B.

At any rate, the Paris urban rail system (Métro+RER+trams+commuters) is superior to London's at present, what's more, London looked at Paris for inspiration. The Crossrail proposal, which got a boost after London got the Olympics though won't be ready for it, and the less ambitious (but ready by the Olympics) East London Line project are modelled on the RER.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Jan 27th, 2007 at 06:38:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the Swiss must focus their priorities on freight instead of HST

Well, building HST would be a way to make way for freight. At any rate, the Swiss do such planning in the integrated way. E.g., say the proposals for enhancements in the Basel area include a bypass route for freight to have more capacity for new TGV-Est, DB Rhine valley route related high-speed traffic, plus extensions for the local rapid trains.

Switzerland's geography doesn't make an expansive highway system feasible.

Still a referendum was needed to stop their expansion, and voting down both proposals in another referendum to prevent the lifting of that prohibition.

So far, I see the big problem as scheduling.

(1) Infrastructure Branch builds a new line with 1.5 kV DC and both ERTMS Lev 2 and old signalling system, Operator Branch runs some local and some international trains with dirrerent locos; (2) Infrastructure Branch builds a new line with ERTMS Lev 2 and 50 Hz / 25 kV, Operator purchases two-system locos with both signalling systems for all trains. In this case, which version is cheaper (a) for Infrastructure Branch, (b) for Operator, (c) for the entire railway?

Similar examples could be made about each of the issues I (and you) brought up downthread in connection with the question of international compatibility, e.g. infrastructure investment planning influences vehicle and operation planning and vice versa, also in cost.

A lower maintenance threshold for rail vehicles will result in higher track wear, and vice versa. This is (unfortunately) visible most strongly in my region, but also appears more to the West. Compare French and German high-speed tracks and operation, in particular rail polishing train operation and night freight trains. Or, again, pre-Hatfield British policy.

There would no longer be just "railways" but "passenger rail" and "rail freight".

This can bear strange fruits like the abandonment of the idea of universal locomotive just when it was made possible by technology (and reality in Austria [and France and Switzerland until recently]), or the separation of maintenance shops which results in longer routes to repair; e.g. cost increases where capacities are doubled and operational problems where they can't.

With less power but more freedom, it might decide to restart the express freight business which La Poste abandoned

The problem is that at present, railfreight is the most losing branch for railways. That is, on its own, it is least able to bring up capital, while integrated, it is at least possible (even if in reality rarely prioritized) to branch off money from profitable high-speed (or subsidized local passenger...) services. On your example, I tink a cross-railway offer involving utilisation of the high-speed lines with new or rebuilt-from-express-passenger-cars and series 36000 locos would

Regarding the issue of what is needed infrastructure-wise to separate passenger and freight, or at least to give freight a stronger background, I can think of two things.

The first is a strategy to separate freight and express passenger lines along the same corridors, be it by adding extra tracks, building high-speed lines and/or freight bypasses, or using close-by parallel lines intelligently; paired with fitting the lines intended for freight with tracks for high axleloads. This part is actual EU policy.

The other part is not EU policy, and pursued by only a few governments (and even them lacklustre): to maintain a network with a high number of access points, to subsidize local wagon or sub-wagon-load freight and industry access tracks. To count on customers opting for re-loading from local trucks proved a folly too often.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Jan 27th, 2007 at 07:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series