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US has very low absolute poverty levels. In fact, it isn't even measurable by common standards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Percentage_population_living_on_less_than_1_dollar_day.png

The US poverty rate you refer to is defined as a percentage of the median income, and is therefore in fact not a measurement of poverty at all, but a measurement of income distribution, just as all so called "relative poverty" measurements are.

The US has low poverty levels. Anything else is pure misinformation.

Also note how Chile is doing well, and better than it's neighbours. Also, Chile has a very good life expectancy,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Life_expectancy_world_map.PNG

And a good HDI value:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HDImap_spectrum2006.png

All things that largely has happened thanks to a relatively liberal economic policies. (Yes, relatively, that is about as liberal as Sweden. The idea that Chile is some sort of superneoliberal experiment is a pure myth).

by freedomfighter on Wed Oct 24th, 2007 at 04:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea of saying any other measure of poverty  than 1 dollar a day isn't poverty is frankly laughable. The difference in costs of subsistence in different countries shold show that.

it may well be that the relative poverty measures aren't truly effective in showing poverty, but theres got to be some measure better than a dollar a day.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Oct 24th, 2007 at 05:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's PPP dollars, hence that difference is taken care of.  It is the best measure of real utter poverty there is. And as mentioned, the western world, including the US has none of that. So saying that the US has a poverty problem is quite frankly an utter insult to the real poors of the world.

Another good measure of serious (but not extreme) poverty is HDI, and as noted bot US and Chile is doing very nicely there.

I suspect that you simply will have to just grin and bear it: The myth that liberal politics causes poverty is just that: A myth. Neither the US nor Chile has any huge problem with poverty compared to the rest of the world.

The main cause of poverty is when the mechanism that create wealth break down. That mechanism is trade, and it breaks down mainly because of war or other violent conflicts, corrupt governments and planned economy (in roughly that order of importance).

by freedomfighter on Wed Oct 24th, 2007 at 06:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's PPP dollars, hence that difference is taken care of.

PPP is a normalization to purchasing power, and an imperfect one at that. What is relevant in terms of poverty is subsistence costs and PPP is largely meaningless in that respect.

From Wikipedia:

The purchasing power parity (PPP) theory was developed by Gustav Cassel in 1920. It is the method of using the long-run equilibrium exchange rate of two currencies to equalize the currencies' purchasing power. It is based on the law of one price, the idea that, in an efficient market, identical goods must have only one price.

See, there are two problems with using PPP to normalize for subsistence costs. First, for most of the goods involved in subsistence, there is no global market, hence the assumption of equal prices is simply (and patently) false. Subsistence depends mainly on shelter, food and water. Of those three, only food is globally tradeable on any kind of industrial scale, and even then, if you believe that the global food market behaves according to the normal rules of market economics, I've got some Enron shares I think you should have a look at.

Second, there does exist a global market for such things as cars, flat-screen TVs and computers, although even there, the assumption of a single price is somewhat suspect). Which means that PPP is going to normalize to the cost of flat-screens rather than food.

To put it in simple terms, 1000 US$PPP may buy me the same amount of cell phones or computers anywhere in the world (give or take ten percent), but it will manifestly not buy me the same amount of calories or vitamin A anywhere in the world.

I'm a charitable kind of guy, so I'll chalk this error up to simple ignorance rather than outright mendacity. Others might be less kind, especially as you yourself so flippantly accuse many of us of lying.

Oh, and next time, do your homework yourself.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 24th, 2007 at 07:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And here comes more personal attacks after the arguments. I'm not gonna bother with explaining why you are wrong and how you have misunderstood PPP with that attitude.
by freedomfighter on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 04:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Will you explain it to me?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 06:09:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure. PPP is a way to measure how much produce you get for a certain currency in the county. It's measured by setting up a "basket" of products (usually not including very many Plasma TVs) and seeing how much they cost in the different countries.

PPP Exchange rate is the theoretical exchange rate you should have if each currency would give you the same amount of money.

I think JakeSs main misunderstanding comes here:

First, for most of the goods involved in subsistence, there is no global market, hence the assumption of equal prices is simply (and patently) false.

Sure. But that doesn't matter, since the point here is not saying what the exchange rates between two currencies should be, but the point is to convert the daily income into something that is comparable. And for that, PPP works just fine.

This is of course not perfect, but it's way better than just using currency exchange rates when measuring poverty.

by freedomfighter on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 09:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, my bad. PPP does not, in fact, depend on the exchange rates which are affected by the spot market. I.o.w., the PPP normalisation is independent of whether there exists a market or not. Mea culpa, and apologies for insinuating that you don't understand the concept of PPP.

I'll even admit that I flew off the handle a bit from being accused of dishonesty. That tends to piss me off. Nevertheless, I do not think that it would be wise of you to attempt to turn this into a discussion of who has been most polite in this thread. DoDo and linca would win that contest hands down.

Nevertheless, it is still true that PPP$ do not accurately reflect subsistence costs, which is the thrust of my original point, as the PPP normalisation includes many goods and services that are not necessary to subsistence.

It is, of course, possible to construct an appropriate normalisation, but that's not what's being done with the official numbers.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 10:11:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On another note, the goods needed to subsist in different countries do vary. In an economy where almost everyone practices subsistence farming, for example, there is less need for transportation than in a developed economy, if for no other reason than because you need to move less far to get to your workplace.

Thus, being able to afford a train ride in a poor country based on subsistence farming is not a major problem (at least compared to all the other problems subsistence farmers face), while in a society where the economic structure is based on thirty-km commutes each way, each day, inability to afford a train ticket is A Bad Thing. Precisely the same good. Wildly differing degrees of necessity.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 10:33:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I accuse whoever came up with the idea of measuring income distribution and calling that a measurement of poverty of being dishonest,

I accuse you who perpetuate this argument of having been suckered. :-)

People are NOT rich because they starve to death together.

Nevertheless, it is still true that PPP$ do not accurately reflect subsistence costs, which is the thrust of my original point, as the PPP normalisation includes many goods and services that are not necessary to subsistence.

Sure, but it's the best option we have until somebody actually make a PPP index that is done only to measure poverty. And to be quite honest, regarding how cheap subsistence goods like somewhere to live and food is in the US, I seriously doubt that the US is gonna come out any worse in the comparison...

by freedomfighter on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 10:46:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another good measure of serious (but not extreme) poverty is HDI

Huh!? HDI is an average that tells little about wealth distribution, and thus the level of poverty, especially that of pensioners. HDI is composed of life expectancy (an average itself), literacy and school enrollment (says absolutely nothing about pensioners' income), and GDP per capita (which again is an average itself). HDI is not at all useful here.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 06:19:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
little about wealth distribution, and thus the level of poverty

As mentioned before, those are NOT the same thing. Income distribution in North Korea is probably very good, people are equally poor. But they still starve to death when the crops fail.

Wealth distribution does NOT measure poverty.

Besides, HDI includes wealth distribution.

But yes, it sais very little about pensioners incomes.

by freedomfighter on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 09:19:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As mentioned before, those are NOT the same thing.

No one said they are the same thing. One needs both the average and the distribution to calculate the level of poverty (be it absolute or relative), and you ignored one of these.

Besides, HDI includes wealth distribution.

Nope. The sole figure in HDI related to wealth (but not equivalent with wealth, ask the Irish) is per capita GDP, which is an average. Check the formula.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Oct 27th, 2007 at 04:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right. Because those statistics typically are mentioned in the Human Development Report, I thought they were a part of the HDI, but they aren't.
by freedomfighter on Mon Oct 29th, 2007 at 02:05:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea of saying any other measure of poverty  than 1 dollar a day isn't poverty is frankly laughable.

Good thing I didn't say anything resembilng that, btw. I included three measures of poverty. I just pointed out that a measurement that measure income distribution doe not measure poverty, just because you call it "poverty". I can measure the average temperature of a country and call that a "poverty scale" if I like. It doesn't make it true.

"Poverty" measures as percentage of a countries mean income is not a measure of poverty at all. Calling it that, which many people do, is simply a lie.

by freedomfighter on Wed Oct 24th, 2007 at 06:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good thing I didn't say anything resembilng that, btw. I included three measures of poverty.

Yes and you managed to exclude the one measure of poverty out of 4 on the page that agrees with me.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 05:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because it isn't a measure of poverty at all, but the Gini coefficiant, which measure incomes inequality, which is clearly noted on the page.
by freedomfighter on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 09:21:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At the risk of feeding a troll, it should be pointed out that an ET diary not too long ago documented the fact that France (I think it was France, but it may have been another European major) had a lower percentage of people earning less than the US relative poverty limit.

In other words, if you live in France, you have a lower risk of being poor by US standards than if you live in the US. France having a lower median income (if the stats in the article are correct), the numbers become even more atrocious when you compare them the other way around.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 24th, 2007 at 06:34:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"At the risk of feeding a troll"

And now you are running out of arguments. I'm not gonna discuss with people who can't keep the discussion civil.

by freedomfighter on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 04:35:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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