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I'm scratching my head at how someone could conclude that poverty and homelessness don't really exist in our societies just because he or she hasn't experienced it first-hand.

Besides, most people that are truly homeless, ie really have no permanent place to keep their stuff for a significant period of their lifes in the US are homeless for the same reasons as the homeless in France or anywhere else in the western world, and that drug abuse, alcoholism och mental disorders. That is not a poverty issue.

OK, first:  "Truly" homeless?  Are you really arguing that a person is not "truly" homeless if he or she only lacks a home for, say, two months?  Two weeks?  Two years?  What kind of "significant period" meets this mysterious defintion of "truly"?  Just out of curiosity.

But defining only the chronically homeless are "truly" homeless is a handy way to pretend that poverty and homelessness aren't real societal problems that need to be addressed.

Second, your definition of "most" needs some work.  According to the National Health Care for the Homeless Council:

Approximately one-third have mental illnesses. Perhaps one-half have a current or past drug or alcohol addiction.

That is not my definition of "most."  It is, of course, more convenient to believe that the only thing that could possibly lead to "true" homelessness and "true" poverty in our enlightened societies is mental illness, but that's just fantasy.

There are many factors that lead to homelessness, including domestic violence and illness - and for the record, I'm talking about illness of the physical kind, since it seems that some people believe that those who suffer from illness of the mental kind are for some reason less deserving of sympathy or support.  Which is not a belief I share, but let's move on.

Next, mental illness and drug addiction are issues of poverty, in that the poor and homeless have far fewer resources for dealing with those problems than the rich and homed.  Diseases of the physical and mental kind affect the poor and homeless in roughly the same proportions as the general population.  But the poor have fewer (or zero) treatment options, and are likely to encounter much greater difficulty getting help.  As a consequence, they may not recover from illnesses (mental and otherwise) that a person with more resources might recover from easily.

What's the result of all this?  Let's just talk about my hometown, the so-called "Capital of the Free World."  In Washington, D.C., according to the Washington Legal Aid Center for the Homeless, nearly half of all homeless people are women and children.  One of the largest homeless shelters in D.C. is run by the CCNV:

Over 65% of the shelter guests work full- or part -time on a regular basis.

That's right, they're working full- or part-time, and are still homeless.  They're living in a homeless shelter, not a military barracks.  This is genuine poverty and true homelessness.  It's real, and denying that won't make it so.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Oct 26th, 2007 at 01:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm scratching my head at how someone could conclude that poverty and homelessness don't really exist in our societies just because he or she hasn't experienced it first-hand.

Well, that would be puzzling. Now who are you referring to exactly?

This debate is now edging into to the world of underhand accusations and straw men. I'm not gonna go there. I will not defend positions I have never had and I will not stand for being accused of opinions that have nothing to do with what I said.

Thank you for debating seriously.

That is not my definition of "most".

First of all those numbers relate to not having a permanent home, not the people living on the streets or in shelters. Second of all one third + one half = five sixths, and 5/6th is indeed "most".

by freedomfighter on Fri Oct 26th, 2007 at 02:44:50 PM EST
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Now who are you referring to exactly?

You were the one who brought up your experience, as if it had some relevance to your argument.

Second of all one third + one half = five sixths, and 5/6th is indeed "most".

Only an idiot or an ideologue would argue that the one-third and the one-half could not possibly overlap and must therefore total five-sixths.  Have you heard of a Venn diagram?  Or are you just being intellectually dishonest?

I will accept no barbs from you about debating seriously, thank you.  Study some basic math, then come back and chat.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Oct 26th, 2007 at 10:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My experience does have relevance. It is your conclusion of what my pinions re that are weird.

The third and the half does not exactly overlap, which is rather obvious. Thus it must in total be more than one half, and hence, it is "most".

You are not debating seriously, you are rude, and asking me to study mathematics is seriously stupid.

I'm sorry that what I'm going to say now is gonna sound as rude as what you said. But the difference is that it's true.

I was invited here by a friend to discuss politics. Unfortunately, this place is full of people with preconceived idea who gets angry when reality comes knocking on the door. It's rather pointless to continue debating with those people since it prevents all serious debate, since the only thing that is accepted is sucking up and agreeing to your fantasies of how you want the world to behave, even when that is not how things are.

You want the poverty in the US to be horrid. No, you need it. The US must be a horrible place for poor, because the US politics must be evil, because the US is the most powerful country in the world, so if they aren't evil, everything would be fine, right?

Sorry, you have no idea of how things work, you don't understand a pluralistic society and as a consequence you are afraid of freedom, and instead grab comfort in collectivistic myths.

I wish I understood how to make people like you understand. But I guess I never will.

by freedomfighter on Sat Oct 27th, 2007 at 05:17:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here, I think I found what you were looking for:

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Oct 27th, 2007 at 05:43:19 AM EST
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Right. Trying to bash down walls work better that talking to them. You are right. :-)
by freedomfighter on Sat Oct 27th, 2007 at 06:50:05 AM EST
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You want the poverty in the US to be horrid. No, you need it. The US must be a horrible place for poor, because the US politics must be evil, because the US is the most powerful country in the world, so if they aren't evil, everything would be fine, right?

Just so you know, you are responding to an American person, and probably close to half of the regular readers of this site are Americans.

Unpatriotic ones, presumably.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Oct 27th, 2007 at 09:18:54 AM EST
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People are just as prone (if not more) to harbouring myths about their own country as of others.

Unpatroticism is good.

by freedomfighter on Sat Oct 27th, 2007 at 09:29:38 AM EST
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Jérôme told you tsp is American, but she herself already told you more in her very first response:

Let's just talk about my hometown

She is taking about stuff she saw with her own eyes, it's you who clings to myths six thousand miles away.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Oct 27th, 2007 at 04:26:34 PM EST
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