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<sarcasm>
Yes, a detailed legal document balancing the interests and concerns of 26 nation states developed over half a century should be short, easy to read and easy to understand. Just like any other large legal document.
</sarcasm>

The core fallacy here is comparing the EU treaties and documents with constitutions: it's like saying the body of UK law should be written on one side of A4 paper.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 09:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This was also the error behind the proposed 'Constitution'.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 10:05:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The core fallacy here is comparing the EU treaties and documents with constitutions: it's like saying the body of UK law should be written on one side of A4 paper.

This is an interesting perspective for two reasons: First, comparing the treaty to 'the body of UK law' suggests that it is reasonable to expect people (or parliaments) to take an up-or-down vote on 'the body of UK law' - is there any democratic country in the world that does things that way?

Secondly, I disagree vehemently with the assertion that comparing the treaty to a constitution is a fallacy. A document that establishes division of power between states, a federal level, and the People is, by definition, a constitution (or a constitutional amendment). The fact that it's bundled with a bunch of other legislation does not make it any less so.

As an example, would the Danish constitution cease being a constitution if it was packaged along with some copyright law, a bit of environmental regulation, some agreements on infrastructure policy, etc.? I would say no, that wouldn't make it any less a constitution, it would only make it more of a mess.

Separate the wheat from the chaff is what I say: Let us have a Unionwide referendum on the parts that govern how the Union is structured and how the power is distributed (i.e. the constitutional parts) and leave all the other stuff (infrastructure, environmental policy, deregulation) for the parliament to sift through.

But of course, that would require admitting that the Union is, or will shortly become, a federation. And for some reason our politicians are scared by that perspective.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 10:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Constitutional amendment is about right.

Anytime you want to persuade the nation states to reconstitute the EU with the citizens of those nation states as the members, feel free: as it stands the states are the members.

I don't hold with the belief that the EU has to become a state to be successful: it seems that it might be able to do something else.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 11:00:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on your definition of 'success.' My definition involves government by the People, of the People, for the People among other things, and I truly have a hard time seeing how the Union can obey that principle without either giving up a whole lot of authority or giving up the notion that the state and federal level should be intertwined the way they currently are.

But I will not harp on that any further in this thread, since legitimacy and federalisation was the subject of this thread, and I don't want to threadjack this one by turning it into a discussion of where the Union should go from here. My own views on that matter are summed up in this comment. I am, of course, open to other suggestions as to how to achieve transparency and accountability, but in my thinking those two objectives are of paramount importance. Virtually any other subject is secondary, where the Union is concerned.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 11:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An agreement between states ... say, for instance, feudal baronies ... that establishes an executive authority and a directly elected parliament, sometimes results in the development of that confederation into a nation-state.

In the end, it may be history that writes the Constitution of a federal Europe, by imposing upon Europe threats that it cannot face as a confederation of states ... but a future history in which a confederal Europe is good enough seems like a more pleasant future for most people to live through.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Oct 21st, 2007 at 10:55:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know the document itself isn't going to be plain english/language of choice but something needs to boil down from it that means something to people who don't have a background in law to refer to.

When the real meaning and implication of something ends up hidden behind a thousand clauses, whose opinion do I take on board when I am trying to make some kind of judgement about what it means to my country? It's no different to most other political issues, I know - that different sides will all put their own selective spin on it.

I don't even know what I'm saying anymore other than I generally wish that people were able to access and understand the important issues that they vote on.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 11:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's about aims and means. The aims should be clear enough to state in a sentence or two, even if the details need fifty five thick leather-bound tomes to be equivocated and hedged with enough legalese to have some legal and diplomatic standing.

But currently it's one big pile of confusion. There are some legal obligations which some states have opted out of, and some stuff about who's in the new parliament, and Europe probably isn't trying to federalise or become a new country, but there's a sort of very understated suggestion that this might not be an entirely bad thing to consider in the future - and even an even more implicit suggestion that while some people want this badly, others would rather make their grandmothers drink Sarkozy's old bathwater than allow it to happen, even over their decomposing carcasses.

And so on. Clarity and simplicity are not much in evidence.

The reason they're not in evidence is because there's very little agreement about the point of the exercise. This is a fall-back CYA position result from the failure of the 'proper' constitution, which was badly argued, badly designed, and 'sold' to the public with a miserable lack of sensitivity which had the happy effect of confirming many people in their worst views of the EU.

So now we have something which agrees that more business support will be good for business, and that a Foreign Minister is needed, and er - some other stuff. More or less.

Only no one is going to be allowed to vote on it. (Because that's the only real reason this is NotAConstitution.)

The Declaration of Independence it isn't.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 12:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I just posted a comment at the bottom before I saw this that effectively says the same thing as you have done here.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 12:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wouldn't a nice clear statement of aims be just lovely, together with a nice aspirational statement about rights of citizens and such things. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem on the cards at the moment. And it won't be until we put it there.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 19th, 2007 at 12:52:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it is a feature of both bundling it together with everything else and the intent of making it unreadable. Don't take my word for it, I bookmarked this from ET months ago:

The new EU reform treaty text was deliberately made unreadable for citizens to avoid calls for referendum, one of the central figures in the treaty drafting process has said.

Speaking at a meeting of the Centre for European Reform in London on Thursday (12 July) former Italian prime minister Giuliano Amato said: "They [EU leaders] decided that the document should be unreadable. If it is unreadable, it is not constitutional, that was the sort of perception".

EU Observer has unfortunately put it behind a subscription wall, costs 0.5 euros to get it, and you need a paypal account. The audio version of the speaking is still available freely at opendemocracy.

I think it is fair to criticise stuff for being unreadable when they are intentionally made so.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Oct 20th, 2007 at 09:15:05 AM EST
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