Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Would that several million people, Germans perhaps, in 1933, 34 or 35 had been possessed of the poor taste and "classlessness," had been willing to succumb to the gaucherie of loudly and publicly comparing Adolph Hitler to... well ..what the hell, lets go for it.. Adolph Hitler, I wonder what result might have ensued. Or, back in the USSR, had Russians stood up and said "hey this Stalin guy is becoming a real Hitler or maybe even a Stalin," how many of the fifty million Russian dead might have been spared, the cold war, arms race avoided, at least greatly reduced.

Fully agreed! But then again, I repeatedly railed against the use of Godwyn's Law to club discussion.

To restate my main point: those railing against Hitler/Nazi/fascism comparisons are only capable to view fascism as the end state of Nazism, and ignore the long step-by-step road that took there from Weimar democracy. Thus they view Nazism (fascism) as something singular, without a historical lesson, and without a sense that if similarities are pointed out today, that is not necessarily a 10% prediction of similar development tomorrow, but a way to start action to prevent such a development.

Make no mistake, these people, the architects of the last six years of international turmoil, of domestic division, of war and death, of crushing despair and hopelessness, are Nazis,

This is the one point where I wouldn't go as far -- "fascists" is bad enough for me, to name one specific manifestation only makes one search for the differences.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 05:00:32 AM EST
Fully agreed!
i think I have to disagree with you here, DoDo, I honestly don't think, if someone had been able to come back from the future and told each German, what would happen, that it had changed the outcome. They would not have been believed. - NO that would not happen here, we are different, we are better. Those are not our problems, how dare you comparing me to those ....

no, as sad as it makes me, to say this, it would not have changed doddle.
what would have changed, is not a comparison, but the recognition of the other.
When they came for, ... because I wasn;t one of them. The famous quote of the German submarine aptain, eh church minister.

However, my argument, is not that the comparison should not be made, I am criticising its usefulness to advance an argument.
It can certainly move on an emotion, and might make people realise something. But then, I would argue, they are realy on connecting to a deeper recognition of the underlying problem of Faschism, and not its historical appearance between 1933 and 1945.

So, motivation to act, stand up, speak, I am all for that - but advancing an intellectual argument, understanding human behaviour on a deeper level, (restricted) no.

by PeWi on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 05:25:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When they came for, ... because I wasn;t one of them. The famous quote of the German submarine aptain, eh church minister.

I think that quote works the same way I argued. That quote forces the recognition of the other via danger to oneself, e.g. it lists the step-by-step extension of persecution, with those feeling safe at first and not feeling solidarity with the first victims coming on the line at the end.

I wasn't thinking of historical what-ifs, but present-day what-ifs. Germans in the thirties might have been incredulous that a step-by-step elimination of freedom and democracy can be a road to such monstrous crimes and such brutal a war loss, but people today can be warned that it happened before, and we should get off the train while it's still just rolling out of the station.

It is precisely the in itself minor advance of each new advance in one direction (each pull on the Overton Window) that people should be warned to not dismiss as insignificant. First they went after Saddam, then the terrists, then the suspicious Arabic-origin immigrants, then the loonie-leftists, but I am safe, I am neither of them...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 05:42:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IE just ate my first answer (I want Ajax- or something to that effect, saving my drafts), and maybe that was good , but this second reply might be even more disjointed.

another problem I have with the comparison argument is: Nazism is seen as the utter evil incarnate. But if 25% of Germans to date (and an even higher percentage of over 50%) say there were good things done under the Nazis, then that also means, that as a warning, it will come as bad as it was under the Nazis, has only limited effect. those 25% will think, but heh, wasn't that bad, my family survived, thrived, made millions (yes, I am looking at George W. Bush and his Grandfather) - so why is he making such a fuzz?

If you want to connect with right wingers and tell them what bad will happen, when they support the limitations of freedom and compare it to the Nazi's, they will say, but the Nazi's had a clear politic on racial purity, that I would love to have, what are you trying to make me afraid off?
However, if the Nazi comparison is not triggered, that person might come around to the realisation of the consequences of limitations of liberties and will support your point of view.

by PeWi on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 07:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and an even higher percentage of over 50%) that should be: of over 50ies.


Some 37 per cent of the over-60s supported the idea.

by PeWi on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 07:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're adding a new dimension here, one which on reflection I find useful.

BobHiggins is citing the Nazis as the archetype of the evil state, to illustrate where the US will end up if it goes too far down the current road. To that extent it is somewhat of an abstraction, typical of how the entire complex is treated in general English-language discourse.

You are approaching it as a real entity which left behind a very real and problematic legacy in attitudes, infrastructure, law, biographies, etc., to which people do not always respond as unambiguously as they do to "Nazis=evil".

Presumably, there would have been a legacy to wrestle with, even if one of the assassination attempts had succeeded, or if other countries had responded with force, say, to the militarization of the Ruhr. And we would do well to keep in mind that the current regime will leave behind a toxic legacy when it leaves even if it is prevented from curtailing freedoms further.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt št gmail dotcom) on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 12:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for reading and taking time to comment
By the way,

Please go to the head of the class.

Thanks for "getting it."



by BobHiggins (rlh974@yahoo.com) on Thu Oct 25th, 2007 at 01:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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