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Set aside HSR ... what would it be at modern Express speed? 10 minutes each accel, 10 minutes each de-accel, that's 40 minutes ... for a tilt-train, say for simplicity that its 7 miles each phase.

OK, Leeds, Manchester, 14 miles in 20 minutes, 30 miles at 100mph so about 18 minutes, for a total of 38 minutes.

Manchester, Liverpool, 14 miles in 20 minutes, 21 miles at 100mph, is about 13 minutes, for about 33 minutes.

10 minutes for debarking and embarking at Manchester, and eventually arriving after an HSR London/Birmingham/Manchester arrives and before it returns, would yield 1 hour 21 minutes.

Non-stop Leeds/Liverpool, 14 miles in 20 minutes, 59 miles in 39 minutes, 59 minutes.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 01:30:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is probably what is in place now, except that there are more intermediate stops. 1h21m is not that different from 1h47m, especially if you add additional stops. TransPennine runs Class 185 trains with a top speed of 100mph on all its lines. It could introduce some Class 43 trains for a cruise speed of 125mph (though the top speed is closer to 150mph). That's what passes for "High Speed" in the UK, but it is 25-year old diesel technology.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 06:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Intercity Express Programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The DfT states that their involvement in a future fleet specification and acquisition is necessary for several reasons. Though Britain's rail operators are privatised, their franchises seldom last for more than 12 years; a train, on the other hand, may remain in service for more than 30 years. It is therefore entirely unprofitable for the franchise operator to replace the fleet, leaving the only other option to hire newly acquired trains from third parties, which can prove extremely expensive. The DfT also states that it can, and has, brought train operators together with a `whole system, whole life' perspective to decide on a specification that will be more flexible with regards to future routes and fleet transfers as well as more environmentally aware.
(My emphasis)

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 06:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends on the standard of the local rail network as well,  Our local railway route lost its ability to run class 43's in about 1993, runing direct to Birmingham at reasonably high speed. One of the main reasons that it was reported to have happened was so that the train companies could reduce the ammount spent on track maintenance by running lighter trains. one of the side effects of this are frequent patches where we are told that we are running slowly in an area due to track conditions.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 06:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Our local railway route lost its ability to run class 43's in about 1993, ... One of the main reasons that it was reported to have happened was so that the train companies could reduce the [amount] spent on track maintenance by running lighter trains.

Say what?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 06:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All the trains on the line when I last went on it were all These

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 06:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obviously I don't know the terrain ... it could be, but 1:20 quite definitely is a different mode split to 1:47, as well as at least one more set to run the same number of services.

But it looks like the key there is conventional Non-Stop / Express / Local scheduling with the Non-Stop chasing the Express chasing the Local into Manchester (on either side).

Assuming 125mph and working that through again ...

Leeds, Manchester, 14 miles in 20 minutes, 30 miles at 125mph so about 15 minutes, for a total of 35 minutes.

Manchester, Liverpool, 14 miles in 20 minutes, 21 miles at 125mph, is about 10 minutes, for about 30 minutes.

10 minutes for debarking and embarking at Manchester, and eventually arriving after an HSR London/Birmingham/Manchester arrives and before it returns, would yield 1 hour 1:15 minutes, so not the same improvement as :145 to 1:20.

Non-stop Leeds/Liverpool, 14 miles in 20 minutes, 59 miles in 29 minutes, 49 minutes.

Not surprisingly, the bonus for a slight ratcheting up of the speed of the class 43 is is the Leeds/Liverpool non-stop.

But to me, the linchpin there for the regional transport task is a true HSR line London/Birmingham/Manchester, and Non-Stop / Express / Locals chasing each other into Manchester to connect with the HSR. However, if it is possible to get an effective Dublin connection by ferry from Liverpool, then I can see taking a London/Birmingham/Manchester HSR on into Liverpool.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 at 06:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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