The European Tribune is a forum for thoughtful dialogue of European and international issues. You are invited to post comments and your own articles.
Please REGISTER to post.
Now, in your heart of hearts, do you personally think that the SNCF pension system is not generous? Or, to look at the general pay package, that bonuses for kilometers travelled include a no-bonus bonus so that it is paid even when no kilometers are travelled -during holidays- is not on the generous side?
Yes, there is bias, the word "generous" without explanation is an invitation to take side. I would, though, not call it inaccurate, especially compared to the normal pension system. Maybe "comparatively generous" then.
Having said that, I'm not happy with the way Sarkozy went into this -he was clearly seeking confrontation. Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
Wages of SNCF drivers don't seem particularly generous, even including the added income that comes from the comparatively higher pension benefits. Yes, part of the pay package has strange denominations. And ? Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
The closest job comparable to TGV driver is probably that of plane pilot... which have much more generous benefits. (and unlike plane pilots, train drivers are supposed to repair their trains on the fly in case of of problem).
And SNCF has difficulties recruiting, because of the very weird hours, (like nurses employers), which is another way to show that it is not that generously compensated... Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
As for comparing a TGV driver to an airline pilot, I think this convinces me for good that you are not of good faith. It's far closer to a long distance bus driver, although if you multiply people travelling by likelihood of an accident, the bus driver has more responsibility and a more exacting job. Not that he gets paid as much or retires at 50...
Can this topic ever be discussed honestly or must it always be propaganda on either side? Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
It's far closer to a long distance bus driver, although if you multiply people travelling by likelihood of an accident, the bus driver has more responsibility and a more exacting job. Not that he gets paid as much or retires at 50...
Surely figuring in likelyhood of an accident is dubious at best, if not interlectually dishonest. If a train driver is better trained or more skilled and so has less accidents then surely he deserves to be better paid, rather than it be decided that he is worth less.
As for deciding the bus driver has more responsibility, I've yet to see the Bus that carries 2 to 3 hundred pssengers. plus if one driver runs slowly, he can wreck the timetables of the whole network. Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
The low likelihood of crashes even compared to a bus does not come from supreme training but from the much more limited possibilities to create an accident. A family friend once drove a TGV -he is in fact a medical doctor (don't ask me how he convinced the train driver to let him do so -but he did. Without training. I don't think he would have been able to fly a plane or even drive a bus).
No, multiplying by the probability of an accident is not dishonest, otherwise you may argue that a museum keeper has more health and safety responsibility because there are more people in the museum than in a plane or a train. If an accident is well nigh impossible, you are not in a situation where a small mistake can spread disaster. Most of the time, a TGV driver would have trouble creating a crash if he tried. A bus driver must take corners, drive on mountain roads, has lots of visibility problems, can fall victim of an exploding tyre...
And it's not just about prestige for the planes either. A jet pilot must be able to land a 4 reactors plane with a single reactor left. What would possibly be the equivalent on a TGV?
As for long distance bus drivers (or jet pilots) at 2am, it's far more frequent than TGV drivers! I don't see too many TGVs during the night. But when my orchestra went to Poland, well, we were driving through the night, as in every trip that outlasts a day. Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
Actually piloting planes is not that hard mid-flight ; that was proven 6 years ago.
The reasons pilots are handsomely compensated is not difficulty of task, or high responsibility, but rather the fact that they have some of the best unions around. And this is changing with the appearance of low-cost carriers.
That's why coach drivers (urban bus drivers often have SNCF-like compensation), who work for many small companies, or nurses (description of the problem here, ) are not.
SNCF compensations are what you can get, when your profession doesn't have direct access to the money supply of the company, and are reasonably well organised in asking for the raises. Nurses are an example of what you can get without proper organisation. What you can get with really good unions is exemplified by, say, book workers, in France. What you get with access to the money supply is exemplified by the banking convention collective.
Of course, nowadays, when neo-liberals are the one with media access, they are pushing the line that SNCF workers are the ones who are "generously compensated", whereas it is the nurses, or John BusDriver, who never goes on strike, who isn't adequately compensated, because he never collectively asked for a raise with the proper arguments - those of withdrawing work. Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
So what? Did your family friend watch the signals, or did the locomotive driver continue to do so? Ditto about the wake signal? Does he even know the railway signal book? Traffic dispatcher and order-giving rules? The TGV's brake percentages? Could he stop the train at the platform, or depart? Could he recognise a motor failure, or know what to do when the aggregator for air conditioning is defect? I can 'hold' the throttle on an airplane, in fact children can do when the pilot lets them in, and that's not even forbidden. (BTW, personally I think that TGV driver who let your family friend in would deserve to be fired.)
Most of the time, a TGV driver would have trouble creating a crash if he tried.
Heh. In the case of a TGV, that's true apart from stations, because the automatic a safety systems are so elaborate. But that only means that would a TGV driver attempt to create trouble, the train would stop.
A bus driver must take corners, drive on mountain roads, has lots of visibility problems, can fall victim of an exploding tyre...
A freight train driver must negotiate tight curves and switches, drive on mountain lines, has lots of visibility problems (with the brake distances trains have, every train driver has lots of visibility problems), and can fall victim to a broken wheel tyre, broken rail, failed brakes (especially on a descent), another train in his route after a signal error, landslides into his right-of-way, and bus drivers crossing the red light.
A jet pilot must be able to land a 4 reactors plane with a single reactor left. What would possibly be the equivalent on a TGV?
Stopping a train with 75% of the braking disconnected. And that's pretty critical. Or initiate braking when you have 1 second for that and jumping out of the train ahead of a collision. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Yes, our family friend was watching the signals, he happened to know them. He did not stop it at the platform because he realised through this driving that he had a sight problem : so he stopped the train, thinking that he had no right of way, because he saw the sign wrong. Which is crazy -but proves that he could stop the train at least. Try landing a 747, just for fun.
As for visibility problems, I meant when you CANNOT see in the direction where you are going. A train has only one dimension. It is not the same challenge at all -just check the statistics.
Stopping a train with a quarter of the braking power is really, really not comparable to landing with one reactor in 4. To start with, you don't have the problem that you start rotating... Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
Huh!? Where are you taking this? Just one example:
Accident ferroviaire de Zoufftgen - Wikipédia
L'accident ferroviaire de Zoufftgen s'est produit le 11 octobre 2006, vers 11 h 45 à Zoufftgen en Moselle, à une vingtaine de mètres de la frontière entre le Luxembourg et la France. Il s'agit d'une collision frontale entre deux trains qui a fait six morts et un blessé grave.
Which is crazy -but proves that he could stop the train at least.
You mean, he stopped the train on the open line? That indeed is crazy, I wonder how the locomotive driver got away with it. But it doesn't follow that your family friend could sto at a platform, i.e. knlow the proper braking distance and also achieve it (and that in any weather).
I meant when you CANNOT see in the direction where you are going.
That happens a) in fog, b) in curves, c) in rain or snow if you need to see far, d) in the night for unilluminated objects not too close. I am not sure what statistics you refer to or are even relevant.
To start with, you don't have the problem that you start rotating...
LOL. Curving line on a downgrade? (One of the worst accidents in railway history: a French captain forced a train driver to continue with a train packed full of WWI soldiers from the Italian front on Christmas front leave.) *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
However, that ain't true. It's just that trains have more fail-safe systems and controls on drivers. I.e., if they don't check the brakes or ignore a signal, the train stops or the stationmaster calls them out, if a bus driver does the same, the bus lands in a gorge or collides with a train. It's not that the bus driver has to watch out more. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
In stormy weather, on an instrument approach to De Gaulle in a vehicle operating independently of any track in three dimensional space- a vehicle with a speed in the transition zone well beyond the top end for the fastest TGV-- In the world's most heavily populated air traffic environment, the pilot will fly a complex approach involving, often, dozens of changes of heading and altitude, changes of speed, of aircraft configuration, all the while communicating with and responding to typically four different radio control facilities, En route Approach Tower Ground --- while at the same time executing multiple check lists and maintaining a mental picture of the field, the terrain, the aircraft angle of attack vs. speed equation (a life-or-death matter), our chauffer will feel his way to the runway end and "grease it on", if he is really good (and lucky)- while creating in his head a mental map of the field's complex taxiways so he or she doesn't turn off at the wrong goddamn runway exit. I speak from experience there. After a night approach in gusty, icy weather, every approach is a clean-shirt deal- to hide the sweat stains. Never, never to be admitted to others, of course.
I suggest that the heavy-qualified airplane driver is performing an act of real-time skill and judgment that approaches the absolute limits of what humans can do.
Also, Every Cat III approach (could be fully automatic) is monitored and in reality hand flown- hands on or near the controls, even when the autopilot is on-
I have the greatest respect for the TGV driver- or the driver of the local freight. I have shared at least a bit of his or her world, I think. Pay the hell out of them, and don't bitch. Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
As for qualifications, yes there are people with more qualifications than realtors at SNCF. There are, though, many more with less. Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
No, I'm all for public transport and agree that it is very important. Most jobs just are not very hard (in term of competence) to do. Sometimes you have tough hours, which is a pain, but then 25 hours of work in a week (TGV driver) is not exactly taxing, so it sort of compensates. Besides, far from all SNCF jobs require a 2am alarm clock. All, though, have lots of bonuses and early retirement. All have employment for life and no competition.
Nurses do something worth at least as much as train drivers, they work longer hours, with very inconvenient times. Compensation is rarely a direct link to what something is "worth", with no effect from how many people able to do it or for commercial positions (such as realtors), how good you are at it. Maybe it would be good if it were the case, but then you'd need a system that applies to everyone, not just SNCF. You'd also have to find a fair outcome for the people who could not get the low competence but worth a lot job simply because there were way too many candidates. As is the case for SNCF... Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
In a bubble, you are likely to get a big variable part. You are also FAR more likely to be fired when it deflates than is you work at SNCF. So it's only to be expected that in a housing bubbles, some realtors could make quite a lot. Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
Sure, there are desk jobs, ticket sellers and conductors. But then traffic controllers, shunting crews and freight train drivers do night shifts, maintenance shop workers have an alarm clock set even earlier than locomotive drivers, in fact some work only by night. By why did you took TGV drivers as example previously?
but then 25 hours of work in a week (TGV driver)
From this, I guess you are channelling an attack article circling on the French web. It is a crude spin: 25 hours is the driving time, not the work time, the work time is 35 hours like for hte rest.
Le Web des Cheminots [ www.cheminots.net ] - votre forum de discussion entre cheminots, agents SNCF et passionnés des chemins de fer
Un temps de travail annualisé Alors, fainéants les cheminots ? En décembre, le directeur de l'Ile-de-France a mis les pieds dans le plat, affirmant que les conducteurs de RER travaillaient « 182 jours par an [...] pour une durée de service de six heures en moyenne » . A la SNCF, le temps de travail - 35 heures, calculé à la minute près - est annualisé. Certaines semaines ont six jours, d'autres deux. Mais on travaille le week-end, les jours fériés, à Noël (ou le jour de l'An), et l'on « découche » plusieurs fois par semaine. Précision : un conducteur ne conduit pas 35 heures. « Sur une journée de 7-8 heures, je fais 4 heures, calcule un conducteur TGV. Le reste du temps il faut préparer la machine. Un train, ça ne se démarre pas comme une voiture ! »
Previously, I had mentioned drivers because they only get to retire at 50. Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
Horaire de travail: 25 heures par semaine (vive les 35 heures)
At any rate, if retiring at 50 is your main problem, I'd welcome if you would consider commuter train, freight train and regional train drivers, too...
I note for comparison that in Germany, there is no separate retirement age for locomotive drivers, but less than 5% reach the official retirement age, most go out after failing medical checks 20-30 years into service. That's quite comparable to the French limit of 50. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Locomotive drivers now: as low as 1500 Locomotive drivers from 2008: 1821-2179 (I guess the difference between management offer and trade union demand is involved) Construction machine drivers: 2310-2522 Roofers: 2415-2604 Long-distance truck drivers: 1733-1793 Cleaners: 1607-1762 Miner squad chiefs: 2475-2512 Bakers: 1518-1700 Postmen: 1740-2183 Caretakers (nurses) for old people: 1575-2081 Steel smelter worker: 1430
Note that airline pilots' pay is often scaled according to the number of potential passengers (e.g. seats) they are responsible for. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
(None of your biddniss what we pay 'em CEOs and traders and analysts and market players, or how they are taxed. After all, where would the money go to instead? Spoilt train drivers???)
I do think that a retirement at 50 for all, with bonuses aplenty during the working years, years during which you work something between 25 to 32 hours, is not workable barring huge levels of taxation, economic isolation, and a huge cut on production. Do you think otherwise? Would you care to explain to me what realistic system of taxation would make it possible?
Until you do, I'll assume that this system is not possible for all. Therefore, calling it comparatively generous is not exactly libertarian. Implying that I would be a brainwashed supporter of UMP is rather funny since it is opposition to UMP that made me get involved in politics...
And I'm all for improving life for nurses. And for a huge list of professions. Now, the thing is, giving EVERYONE a 10% increase is the same as doing nothing at all, because you have merely increased the quantity of money but not changed the quantity of goods... Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
A lot of people, a bit less than half workers, are getting above median wage. It's pretty hard for everyone to be paid above median wage, thus people being paid above above median wage should not protest when their generous compensation is being cut... That's the gist of your argument. Deciding to be compensated in the form of an earlier retirement age (rather than higher wages, as most do) ought to be a possibility. SNCF workers are the one that accepted higher contributions from their wages to make their earlier retirement possible. Their early retirements are not financed through taxation, nor collective contributions. Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
This is a complete strawman argument.
I see huge cuts of production as necessary for the 'west' to live within its means. And huge cuts in the externalisation of costs, in particular when those externalities are in effect off-shored to developing nations. Maybe we should not look to increase the quantity of goods, but rather the quantity of free time? Maybe all the noise about 'accelerated rates' of 'growth' being beneficial and good and necessary ought to be examined as well?
To what end are we pursuing 'growth'? I remain unconvinced the striving for the most 'dynamic' most 'innovative', most 'productive' 'economy' (or whatever are the buzzwords of today), when this seems to translate in a large part to an exploitative, resource heavy, pollution producing, worker abusing, greed promoting 'society'. And, no, I don't buy the idea that we need growth to have a healthy 'economy', and that this is an end in itself. The 'economy' is there in the service of the people, not the other way around. And, no, I don't think we need more job creation. (A benefit often pointed to as an argument for 'market' 'liberalisation' and 'reform'.) I think we need less time spent at work, and a more equal distribution of that work. Some amount of economic isolationism might be a good idea in the pursuit of the less work intensive society. I don't have a problem with high levels of taxation.
So, you are saying that nurses don't really exist. Congratulations. Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. Often, the straw man is set up to deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.
by Frank Schnittger - Dec 18 16 comments
by gmoke - Jan 13 9 comments
by gmoke - Dec 22
by Oui - Jan 24
by Oui - Jan 22
by Oui - Jan 20
by Oui - Jan 19
by Oui - Jan 17
by Oui - Jan 16
by Oui - Jan 15
by Oui - Jan 151 comment
by Oui - Jan 14
by Oui - Jan 141 comment
by Oui - Jan 132 comments
by Oui - Jan 133 comments
by Oui - Jan 13
by gmoke - Jan 139 comments
by Oui - Jan 12
by Oui - Jan 122 comments