Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
It could be mumbo-jumbo... but maybe it's not.

The facts seem to be there to support "Anglo-Saxon skepticism". Christian (actually, non Muslim) communities in secular Turkey have been all but wiped out. Egyptian Copts are dwindling. In Iraq, they're almost all gone. In Iran - closing in on zero. On the other hand, the Muslim community in Europe is growing.

It seems reasonable to assume that the value systems between the European and Muslim governed nations are not the same? What you're implying is that the value system driving Muslim governed nations is set by the government for the people. So if you take the people away from their government and put them in sophisticated Europe, you'll no longer have a problem with the different values. The Anglo-Saxon analysis, on the other hand, is that the value system observed in Muslim nations is a result of their society's religious beliefs - ie. individual values that drive national values. So, if you transplant individuals from Mecca to Dollis Hill near London, you're eventually going to have a problem with conflicting value systems.

Finally, remember that wherever significant Muslim minorities cohabitated with another religion, war and separation ensued: India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philippines, Bosnia, Kosovo, Cyprus.

So why should Europe be an exception?

by vladimir on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 08:28:54 AM EST
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Well in India/Pakistan and Cyprus, the fact that British colonialism played one community against the other, surely contributed to the outcomes? I note Turkey enthusiastically ethnically cleansed Alexandretta of (muslim) Arabs, and has killed (moslem) Kurds in the past 20 years in shocking numbers.  

The Christian exodus out of Iraq was precipitated by the acts of a Very Christian Nation. In the Levant Christian communities are doing well enough, while you forgot to mention Albania where nationality trumps religious differences (and in fact the Albanians are the least religious people in the Balkans it seems). Also, in Turkey the secular Christian communities were less wiped out because of their religion and more because of their ethnicity (in fact the population exchanges of 1923 made sure there were but a few Moslems in Greece and but a few Orthodox Christians in Turkey - sometimes despite the fact that the exchangees didn't know a word of the language of the country they were being sent to).

But, as far as nationalist/religious dumbwittery is concerned, over here in EU Greece we may not have had any wars lately, but Serbs are a model of secular humanism and national moderation compared to a large percentage of my compatriots who (for example), just this month, were polled as opposing acceptance of any name for our northern neighbor that contains the term Macedonia or any derivatives, something like 70-30, and where the Church of Greece is very political and very bloody rich - thus influencing politics, society and policy to an extent, I'd bet, that poor Patriarch Pavle never dreamed of. So "enshrining cultural heritage above realpolitik" is not new and its not foreign to the EU - heck we own the franchise...!

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 09:23:15 PM EST
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There is a difference between Greece and Serbia however. A goodly number of Greeks may have heavy nationalist sympathies, but there are different forms of leadership in place. Sentiment does not rule over action, especially when you consider that Greeks are expert at presenting a double-face to the international community. How does a country that is seemingly anti-American support a government that does everything it can not to fall out favor with Americans? How does a pro-Serb government allow American military weaponry to use Saloniki as a port of entry for a military battle with Serbs?

Are Greeks schizophrenic?

The bit about Turkey and Christians I will have to disagree with since Greeks were not the only ones displaced from Turkey at the time. Armenians, Assyrians and other Christians were also removed, and the statements of the Young Turks between 1915 and 1921 openly targeted Christians rather than referring to them as ethnic groups.

by Upstate NY on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 11:41:44 AM EST
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How well are Christians doing in Albania lately? How well did the Jewish population do in Albania during the second World War?


Finally, remember that wherever significant Muslim minorities cohabitated with another religion, war and separation ensued: India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philippines, Bosnia, Kosovo, Cyprus.

Oh really. How well did Christians do in Africa & South & North America?

Honestly. You're putting a lot of incontrovertible historic events to the wayside to uphold a very wobbly and paranoid idea of Islam evilness. I'm not saying there are no problems with immigrants from Muslim countries, but to pin it all on one over-arching religion, without differentiation, globally oriented historic background, and cultural contexts? Rather unconvincing.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 07:07:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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