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Considering you're American, on what information do you base your opinion that it will be hard for Europeans to feel European rather than German, French, Italian...? I presume your statement about Californians and New Jerseyans is based on personal esperience?

Take a country like Spain, of which Cánovas del Castillo, one of the most influential politicians of the 19th century and several times Prime Minister said in the Spanish Parliament that "Spanish is he who cannot be anything else". It shouldn't be too hard to substitute a European identity for a Spanish identity.

I found a 2004 Spanish survey on attitudes to the EU. Out of a sample of 2488 people,
6.9% feel primarily European
27.0% feel equally Spanish and European
59.3% feel primarily Spanish
6.0% feel neither [these would be people who feel more a part of their region than Spanish or European]

In other words, European sentiment is already stronger than nationalistic sentiment within Spain.

The question you have to ask is what makes each European European, because the resons why a Spaniard and a Finn feel European are likely to be different different, but that doesn't prevent each from saying they feel European.

I am Spanish. I feel European. I don't like identity politics. Therefore, I am not particularly interested in 1) picking apart the reasons why I feel European; 2) telling the world that my way of feeling European is the way Europeans should feel; 3) passing judgement on why or how Americans feel American.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 at 02:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Last paragraph: very well said! Tho' in for point 3, where I sense some smugness ;-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 at 02:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am actually not including "Spanish Centralist Nationalist" among "nationalist sentiment", which is a mistake on my part, but which is also not possible to pick out from the survey data.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 at 03:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the Italians I met, Tuscans in particular, hated the EU and euro especially.  They told me that all Brussels does is charge taxes and passes stupid regulations.  Perhaps, they identified themselves as European (I dont know) but as far as a EU government was concerned, they detested the idea.

"In other words, European sentiment is already stronger than nationalistic sentiment within Spain."

You're own poll contraditcts what you are saying. Reading your poll, 59% of Spanish feel PRIMARILY Spanish.  Only 7% feel primarily European. It seems to me Spain has a long way to go.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 at 08:13:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The "nationalistic sentiment" Migeru is referring to is not that of being Spanish, but that of feeling Catalan, Basque, etc..., as he has already pointed out.

And many of those that identify themselves as Americans hate "the federal government" too, like the Tuscans in your example.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 at 09:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The "nationalistic sentiment" Migeru is referring to is not that of being Spanish, but that of feeling Catalan, Basque, etc..., as he has already pointed out. "

This does not change what the poll says. The poll says 59 percent identify themselves as primarily Spanish. Only 8 percent as European.  Few spaniards identify themselves as European according to the poll he cited.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Sat Dec 15th, 2007 at 11:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This does not change what the poll says. The poll says 59 percent identify themselves as primarily Spanish.

Which is a federal identity, just like 'European' or 'EU citizen'.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 04:49:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the more I think about this the less I'm sure, but nowadays I lean towards that view. I would say that Spain didn't become a unitary state until the Bourbons took over the crown after 1713, and that at least since 1830 there has been evidence of strong regional identity movements (political or simply cultural). The First Spanish Republic of 1873-4 was subject to strong separatist tensions (famously, the city of Cartagena declared itself an independent canton), and the Second Spanish Republic of 1936-9 gave autonomy to Catalonia, the Basque Country and was drafting a Galician statute when the Civil War broke out. The Spanish Constitution of 1978 intended for only those three to have full autonomy retaining a unitary (but decentralised) state for the rest, but Andalusia managed to win a referendum to fast-track itself into autonomy, and in less than 5 years the whole country carved itself into 17 autonomous communities. Spain is effectively a federal state in all but name. However, I see a majority of the PP electorate and a sizeable part of the PSOE electorate favouring a unitary state. This was evident during the recent controversy on the reform of the Catalan Autonomy Statute.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 05:10:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Which is a federal identity, just like 'European' or 'EU citizen'."

No, it's not. They had the choice to choose "European" if they wanted. They chose Spanish. Nice try though.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 11:59:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's not

So you don't even understand what Spain is, and go on lecturing us. <off>

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 03:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU has no power of taxation. The only thing Europe has been allowed to do in the taxation area is harmonization of the Value-Added Tax (a sales tax), which is paid to the Member States, not to the EU.

About the "stupid regulations" I am not so sure either. Often these are stories propagated by the press with little basis in reality, or the member states add them to EU directives when they transpose them into national legislation. But there are stupid regulations, such as the liquids ban on airplanes.

There is one data point in these polls which I found interesting: of the people who are interested in national politics, 30% are not interested in European politics.

As for the Spanish sentiment, the one glaring omission in the CIS polls is the question of ranking regional, national and european sentiment. This means that they either ask people about their regional vs. national identification, or their national vs. european identification. So the 60% of people who identify primarily as Spanish includes those who identify equally with Spain and their region above Europe.

According to the Eurobarometer, 95% of those polled have seen the EU flag, and 54% identify with it [including 68% of Italians]. It should be noted that the flag is originally the flag of the Council of Europe, a human rights organization, which includes all European countries except Belarus including Turkey, Russia and the ex-soviet Caucasian republics. As for attachment, 91% feel attached to their country, 86% to their city/town/village, and 53% to the EU. Spain and Italy are both at 62%. Interestingly, the ones who feel most attached are people from Macedonia, which isn't even a Member State. For those living in a different EU country than that which they are born in or born of foreign parents, attachment is higher at 65%.

If you want to argue that the EU and a European Identity have a long way to go, I don't think anyone will disagree with you. But if you want to argue 1) it's not happening; 2) it can't happen; 3) it's hopeless; I think you're wrong.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 04:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to argue that the EU and a European Identity have a long way to go, I don't think anyone will disagree with you. But if you want to argue 1) it's not happening; 2) it can't happen; 3) it's hopeless; I think you're wrong.

And the emergence of Spanish identity vs. 'regional' identities might be a case in point.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 04:43:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Im trying to figure out why you would cite a poll says the exact opposite of your premise. And then why I point it out, you state it is flawed.

Anyway, I dont think Spanish changing their minds about feeling "european" is impossible, or hopeless. I am saying you have an uphill battle.  It didnt happen overnight in the U.S. Many states used to have border wars before the revolution.  Of course, there was the civil war, when half the country wanted to be their own country.  The trend lately has been for countries to split up-Soviet Union, Kosovo-Serbia etc, for ethnicity reasons.  Europe is trying to do the opposite of that trend.  

Right now, the EU government is secondary to the member states. BUt I have the feeling that many here would prefer the opposite.  I am not sure most european citizens are ready for that given the statistics you cite.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 11:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think is my premise?

I did not cite a poll that I knew from before. I just went and found what is probably the best source of opinion polls (CIS: Spain's Institute for Sociological Investigations) and found the most recent poll on European attitudes (2004: the year of the latest European Parliament elections). I then interpreted the result. You disagree with my interpretation. What I was after was basically a measure of the strength of the sentiment, not a yes/no answer as to whether it exists.

For good measure, I just went and found the previous analogous poll, from 1999 (previous EP elections). The results were as follows:

Out of 2491 respondents,
Mostly European 5.2%
Equally Spanish and European 21.5%
Mostly Spanish 65.4%
Neither (Spontaneous) 7.1%

One of the advantages of CIS polls is, clearly, that they provide you with time series of the same questions.

So I would say the shift towards a European identity is strong, considering it's happened in only 5 years. Not that I expect you to agree.

For reference:

I found a 2004 Spanish survey on attitudes to the EU. Out of a sample of 2488 people,
6.9% feel primarily European
27.0% feel equally Spanish and European
59.3% feel primarily Spanish
6.0% feel neither
If you put this on a logit basis you have
Mostly European goes from -2.90 to -2.60
Equally Spanish and European goes from -1.30 to -0.99
Mostly Spanish goes from 0.64 to 0.38
Neither goes from -2.57 to -2.75

If I had to make an extrapolation based on this I'd predict for 2009
Mostly European 9%
Equally Spanish and European 34%
Mostly Spanish 53%
Neither 5%
with "mostly Spanish" dropping below 50% by 2014 and below "both equally" by 2019. By the time I'm 50 the "mostly European" group would be at 20% and the "mostly Spanish" group at 34%

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 08:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't know about the maths, but the politics is certainly all to play for.  Given the number of Brits who now live in Spain, even the UK may soon be becoming less Eurosceptic.  In reality, European integration s probably happening at a popular level even faster than it is happening at an official, structural level.  Whether there will be a reaction against this at some stage, I don't know, but for most people, an ever deepening level of European integration is now a given.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 08:39:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the Italians you met is quite obviously a rather unrepresentative sample of Italians.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 04:48:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How hard would it be, Terry, to meet Americans in the States and hear them complain in the same way against the federal government? In fact, in the States it could go further than grumbling about taxation and annoying regulations - it could go to reviling the federal government for applying basic human rights (see States' Rights).

Coming back to Europe, the Italians you cite seem to me to be belly-aching without knowledge. The EU does not levy taxes (its budget is small, around 1% of GDP). I'd suggest those people, if the EU didn't exist, would be griping about the Italian government in the same way.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 06:00:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A very good point. Not far at all. I am the first to complain about the federal government.  The federal government is supposed to defend the country, enforce the borders, regulate commerce BETWEEN the states etc.  The rest is up to state law.  The federal government has expanded their role well beyond its stated purpose, involving itself in elementary school education, crime, social security, etc.

The difference may be several reasons. First, our federal government is proportionally made up of citizens from the states. Second, I dont feel much different from someone from FLorida then someone from New Jersey.  I am not so sure the same identity exists between a Tuscan and an Irishman yet.  

Another point, the increase of the US federal government is the result of a civil war, and two world wars. Before that, the role of the federal government was limited.  Frederick Hayek warned of the danger that the increased need of mobilization during wartime leads to more government control and the disease of socialism. He wasnt wrong.

The Italians I am talking about are pissed about the euro in particular. You may be right about their own government.  But the imposition of the euro has taken monetary policy out of it's government's control. So, guess who they blame.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 12:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"In other words, European sentiment is already stronger than nationalistic sentiment within Spain." - Migeru

I think you misunderstand Migeru's language here Terry.  By Nationalistic sentiment he (and Spaniards) mean Basque, Catalan etc. which at 6.0% is lower than the 6.9% who feel primarily European.  

One of the benefits of the EU, is that it has reduced the relative importance of the nation state which in turn means that tensions within that nation state (Spain, Ireland/N. Ireland,) can be reduced, and previously suppressed identities (Basque, Catalan, Breton, Scot, Welch) can be expressed more freely.  I matters less now if Belgium breaks up because all the component "bits" will still be within the EU.

Is this a more general experience throughout Europe - e.g Eastern Europe?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 07:54:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why would you want to reduce the importance of the member state?  Government that is close to the people has the most legitimacy.  I would imagine that Spaniards would rather have their laws come from Spaniards who live in the region than bureaucrats from some other country living in Brussels. Those that dont, probably just dont like how the system runs in Spain, do not have the political ability to change it there and probably want their compatriots in the EU to impose it.

In the US, the states have direct control over their own regions. The federal goverment, while supreme, looks over the nation.  

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Sun Dec 16th, 2007 at 12:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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