The European Tribune is a forum for thoughtful dialogue of European and international issues. You are invited to post comments and your own articles.
Please REGISTER to post.
Take a country like Spain, of which Cánovas del Castillo, one of the most influential politicians of the 19th century and several times Prime Minister said in the Spanish Parliament that "Spanish is he who cannot be anything else". It shouldn't be too hard to substitute a European identity for a Spanish identity.
I found a 2004 Spanish survey on attitudes to the EU. Out of a sample of 2488 people, 6.9% feel primarily European 27.0% feel equally Spanish and European 59.3% feel primarily Spanish 6.0% feel neither [these would be people who feel more a part of their region than Spanish or European]
In other words, European sentiment is already stronger than nationalistic sentiment within Spain.
The question you have to ask is what makes each European European, because the resons why a Spaniard and a Finn feel European are likely to be different different, but that doesn't prevent each from saying they feel European.
I am Spanish. I feel European. I don't like identity politics. Therefore, I am not particularly interested in 1) picking apart the reasons why I feel European; 2) telling the world that my way of feeling European is the way Europeans should feel; 3) passing judgement on why or how Americans feel American. We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
"In other words, European sentiment is already stronger than nationalistic sentiment within Spain."
You're own poll contraditcts what you are saying. Reading your poll, 59% of Spanish feel PRIMARILY Spanish. Only 7% feel primarily European. It seems to me Spain has a long way to go. Terry
And many of those that identify themselves as Americans hate "the federal government" too, like the Tuscans in your example. Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
This does not change what the poll says. The poll says 59 percent identify themselves as primarily Spanish. Only 8 percent as European. Few spaniards identify themselves as European according to the poll he cited. Terry
Which is a federal identity, just like 'European' or 'EU citizen'. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
No, it's not. They had the choice to choose "European" if they wanted. They chose Spanish. Nice try though. Terry
So you don't even understand what Spain is, and go on lecturing us. <off> *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
About the "stupid regulations" I am not so sure either. Often these are stories propagated by the press with little basis in reality, or the member states add them to EU directives when they transpose them into national legislation. But there are stupid regulations, such as the liquids ban on airplanes.
There is one data point in these polls which I found interesting: of the people who are interested in national politics, 30% are not interested in European politics.
As for the Spanish sentiment, the one glaring omission in the CIS polls is the question of ranking regional, national and european sentiment. This means that they either ask people about their regional vs. national identification, or their national vs. european identification. So the 60% of people who identify primarily as Spanish includes those who identify equally with Spain and their region above Europe.
According to the Eurobarometer, 95% of those polled have seen the EU flag, and 54% identify with it [including 68% of Italians]. It should be noted that the flag is originally the flag of the Council of Europe, a human rights organization, which includes all European countries except Belarus including Turkey, Russia and the ex-soviet Caucasian republics. As for attachment, 91% feel attached to their country, 86% to their city/town/village, and 53% to the EU. Spain and Italy are both at 62%. Interestingly, the ones who feel most attached are people from Macedonia, which isn't even a Member State. For those living in a different EU country than that which they are born in or born of foreign parents, attachment is higher at 65%.
If you want to argue that the EU and a European Identity have a long way to go, I don't think anyone will disagree with you. But if you want to argue 1) it's not happening; 2) it can't happen; 3) it's hopeless; I think you're wrong. We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
And the emergence of Spanish identity vs. 'regional' identities might be a case in point. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
Anyway, I dont think Spanish changing their minds about feeling "european" is impossible, or hopeless. I am saying you have an uphill battle. It didnt happen overnight in the U.S. Many states used to have border wars before the revolution. Of course, there was the civil war, when half the country wanted to be their own country. The trend lately has been for countries to split up-Soviet Union, Kosovo-Serbia etc, for ethnicity reasons. Europe is trying to do the opposite of that trend.
Right now, the EU government is secondary to the member states. BUt I have the feeling that many here would prefer the opposite. I am not sure most european citizens are ready for that given the statistics you cite. Terry
I did not cite a poll that I knew from before. I just went and found what is probably the best source of opinion polls (CIS: Spain's Institute for Sociological Investigations) and found the most recent poll on European attitudes (2004: the year of the latest European Parliament elections). I then interpreted the result. You disagree with my interpretation. What I was after was basically a measure of the strength of the sentiment, not a yes/no answer as to whether it exists.
For good measure, I just went and found the previous analogous poll, from 1999 (previous EP elections). The results were as follows:
Out of 2491 respondents, Mostly European 5.2% Equally Spanish and European 21.5% Mostly Spanish 65.4% Neither (Spontaneous) 7.1%
One of the advantages of CIS polls is, clearly, that they provide you with time series of the same questions.
So I would say the shift towards a European identity is strong, considering it's happened in only 5 years. Not that I expect you to agree.
For reference:
I found a 2004 Spanish survey on attitudes to the EU. Out of a sample of 2488 people, 6.9% feel primarily European 27.0% feel equally Spanish and European 59.3% feel primarily Spanish 6.0% feel neither
If I had to make an extrapolation based on this I'd predict for 2009 Mostly European 9% Equally Spanish and European 34% Mostly Spanish 53% Neither 5% with "mostly Spanish" dropping below 50% by 2014 and below "both equally" by 2019. By the time I'm 50 the "mostly European" group would be at 20% and the "mostly Spanish" group at 34% We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
Coming back to Europe, the Italians you cite seem to me to be belly-aching without knowledge. The EU does not levy taxes (its budget is small, around 1% of GDP). I'd suggest those people, if the EU didn't exist, would be griping about the Italian government in the same way.
The difference may be several reasons. First, our federal government is proportionally made up of citizens from the states. Second, I dont feel much different from someone from FLorida then someone from New Jersey. I am not so sure the same identity exists between a Tuscan and an Irishman yet.
Another point, the increase of the US federal government is the result of a civil war, and two world wars. Before that, the role of the federal government was limited. Frederick Hayek warned of the danger that the increased need of mobilization during wartime leads to more government control and the disease of socialism. He wasnt wrong.
The Italians I am talking about are pissed about the euro in particular. You may be right about their own government. But the imposition of the euro has taken monetary policy out of it's government's control. So, guess who they blame. Terry
I think you misunderstand Migeru's language here Terry. By Nationalistic sentiment he (and Spaniards) mean Basque, Catalan etc. which at 6.0% is lower than the 6.9% who feel primarily European.
One of the benefits of the EU, is that it has reduced the relative importance of the nation state which in turn means that tensions within that nation state (Spain, Ireland/N. Ireland,) can be reduced, and previously suppressed identities (Basque, Catalan, Breton, Scot, Welch) can be expressed more freely. I matters less now if Belgium breaks up because all the component "bits" will still be within the EU.
Is this a more general experience throughout Europe - e.g Eastern Europe? Index of Frank's Diaries
In the US, the states have direct control over their own regions. The federal goverment, while supreme, looks over the nation. Terry
by gmoke - Nov 8
by Frank Schnittger - Nov 2 13 comments
by Oui - Oct 26 34 comments
by gmoke - Oct 26
by Oui - Nov 103 comments
by Oui - Nov 912 comments
by Oui - Nov 79 comments
by Oui - Nov 614 comments
by Oui - Nov 47 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Nov 213 comments
by Oui - Oct 3130 comments
by Oui - Oct 2634 comments
by Oui - Oct 267 comments
by Oui - Oct 2547 comments
by Oui - Oct 254 comments
by Oui - Oct 2423 comments
by Oui - Oct 246 comments
by Oui - Oct 20
by Oui - Oct 1915 comments
by Oui - Oct 193 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 1811 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Oct 18