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Europe would not be democratic if it wasnt mainly for the United States.  And after what Europe did last century, Europeans need not lecture Americans on and peace, freedom and democracy.

Let's not be so quick to forget where the Enlightenment ideals on which our democracy was founded originated.  Hint.  It was Europe.

And whether you like it or not, it was mostly the US that finally brought peace to Europe.

I would argue that the US was in fact instrumental, but hardly alone in that.  I think Great Britain and the Soviet Union might have lent us a hand in saving the world.  

Democracy is not just an election.  It requires the consent of the governed, freedom of expression, the right to private property.

I find that political ideologies are like religion.  Not easily defined.  Democracy is about more than elections.  Freedom of Speech is the holy grail of American democracy.  But private property?  I think that's more about Capitalism than Democracy.  

Lastly, I just want to pipe up, and say, I think it's a little unhelpful for Americans to show up at a European website and begin lecturing people.  Not because we don't have good points to make, and not because the Europeans are right about everything.  But because it just reinforces stereotypes about Americans being arrogant.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 02:22:24 PM EST
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"I would argue that the US was in fact instrumental, but hardly alone in that.  I think Great Britain and the Soviet Union might have lent us a hand in saving the world."

I would wholeheartedly agree with England. The Soviet Union enslaved Eastern Europe with totalitarian governments including Poland, which was ironically over what the war started over. So, I wouldnt rush to thank them for a "free" europe. That is, unless you're like Frank and believe in "one party democracy".

Private property is a cornerstone of democracy. If I can take everything you earn, can you be free?

Of course, our democracy comes from the european thinkers. Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau were instrumental.  It is a shame that their philosophies could not have materialized in Europe because they were mostly totalitarian governments until the 20th century.

And I havent lectured anyone. I have given my opinion. I was discussing how I saw EU identity from an American viewpoint.  Some have chosen to stray a bit off topic into what democracy is and I have answered.  If you disagree, then challenge it. I dont worry about what Europeans think and how they percieve the US.  Especially, since three of my uncles risked their lives liberating it.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 05:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to admit that the Soviet union played a major part in defeaing Nazism, That's not to say that post 1945 They were an unalloyed good for Europe, but without the Red army, the liberation of Western europe would have been an entire order of difficulty harder.

Private property is not a cornerstone of democracy,  and the outcome of democracy is not necessarily freedom, if you think that it is then you have misunderstood the nature of democracy.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 08:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, the Soviet Union played a large part in the defeat of the Nazis. Just let's not forget what they did. They signed an armistice with Hitler. Invaded the eastern half of Poland after Germany came in.  Then they were double crossed and attacked by Hitler.  And, by war's end, they had enslaved half of Europe including ALL of Poland. So, let's not pretend the Soviet Union was some white knight.

Again, property rights is the cornerstone of democracy.  Law is designed to protect life, liberty and PROPERTY.  If you do not have the right to keep what you earn, than you are not free. Simply saying it's not, does not counter my argument.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 09:12:28 AM EST
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Thought it was Life, Liberty and the persuit of happiness? Law may be designed to protect what you are saying but freedom, law, property and democracy are all different things, any of which can exist without the others.

Im not pretending that the Soviet Union was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but then again the claim that half of Europe was enslaved by the wars end is probably taking it a bit far and does sound like some 1950's Mcarthyite propaganda.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 11:08:59 AM EST
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