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Our European Identity | 120 comments (120 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Our European Identity (none / 0)
"I would argue that the US was in fact instrumental, but hardly alone in that.  I think Great Britain and the Soviet Union might have lent us a hand in saving the world."

I would wholeheartedly agree with England. The Soviet Union enslaved Eastern Europe with totalitarian governments including Poland, which was ironically over what the war started over. So, I wouldnt rush to thank them for a "free" europe. That is, unless you're like Frank and believe in "one party democracy".

Private property is a cornerstone of democracy. If I can take everything you earn, can you be free?

Of course, our democracy comes from the european thinkers. Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau were instrumental.  It is a shame that their philosophies could not have materialized in Europe because they were mostly totalitarian governments until the 20th century.

And I havent lectured anyone. I have given my opinion. I was discussing how I saw EU identity from an American viewpoint.  Some have chosen to stray a bit off topic into what democracy is and I have answered.  If you disagree, then challenge it. I dont worry about what Europeans think and how they percieve the US.  Especially, since three of my uncles risked their lives liberating it.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 05:41:50 PM EST
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Re: Our European Identity (none / 0)
You have to admit that the Soviet union played a major part in defeaing Nazism, That's not to say that post 1945 They were an unalloyed good for Europe, but without the Red army, the liberation of Western europe would have been an entire order of difficulty harder.

Private property is not a cornerstone of democracy,  and the outcome of democracy is not necessarily freedom, if you think that it is then you have misunderstood the nature of democracy.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 08:29:28 PM EST
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Re: Our European Identity (none / 0)
Of course, the Soviet Union played a large part in the defeat of the Nazis. Just let's not forget what they did. They signed an armistice with Hitler. Invaded the eastern half of Poland after Germany came in.  Then they were double crossed and attacked by Hitler.  And, by war's end, they had enslaved half of Europe including ALL of Poland. So, let's not pretend the Soviet Union was some white knight.

Again, property rights is the cornerstone of democracy.  Law is designed to protect life, liberty and PROPERTY.  If you do not have the right to keep what you earn, than you are not free. Simply saying it's not, does not counter my argument.

Terry

by Terry (Terry@pollackzuckerman.com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 09:12:28 AM EST
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Re: Our European Identity (none / 1)
Thought it was Life, Liberty and the persuit of happiness? Law may be designed to protect what you are saying but freedom, law, property and democracy are all different things, any of which can exist without the others.

Im not pretending that the Soviet Union was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but then again the claim that half of Europe was enslaved by the wars end is probably taking it a bit far and does sound like some 1950's Mcarthyite propaganda.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 11:08:59 AM EST
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Our European Identity | 120 comments (120 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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