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Let me point out that the foundation of science..a dn of the positive methos is magic.. and that religion was also a development of magic that tried to take the place of it.

In other words, on one hand there are plenty of magic and semi-magic rithuals of belonging and sharing and "giving meaning to" and practices trying to udnerstand the "why" to me" question or purely the "why".. from philosophhy to apsichology to any symbolic fourtuen teller or any rithual of self-recognition. When religion developed giving stress to the order and hierarchy stuff it tiried strongly to get rid of or abuse and co-opt the stablished magic structures (sol invictus anybody?) so it is no wonder that spirituality came to mean  the "concept" it measn know.. trying to make sense of it all with the help of the authority.

On the other hand, while in Europe there is revulsion to the autoritas in religion and magic is and semi-magic are filling the role of religion we have teat thea uthority has been given to Science... and msot of the time in the worst sense oft he word Science. Science has been humiliated to the "if Scince says it so, it is true" just in the wway religion used to do. But thi is not a problem of the scientific minds and the people doing research, it is more aproblem of a certain mind set ina certain subset of disciplines that have a lot of projections. Luckily in physics I ahrdly can encounter this close-mind a pproach...

Closing the argument. I would say that the gtreat reason why science is failing to provide anything more than an "autoritas" or failing to explain that ins cience there should be no toher authority that your rational mind applying a set of tools and concepts to the external world is hte lack of people with a huge background fof alls ciences and of fairy-teellng and oral communication /antrhopoogy in particualr. There are nos cholars explaining the how questions and giving new posibilities for the "why" questions... there are no good phiosopher that know what theey are talking about when they talk about science, and there are no good scientific scholars which are giving money and prestige to explain in philosophical or magica ways science.

And finally, a humble opinion.. if magic and science do not join forces I see a bleak future for enlightenment values and for the positivsm of science.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 07:57:26 AM EST
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by magic, even though I have seen you use the term a lot.  Could you please explain a little?

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by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 09:54:08 PM EST
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I think he uses it in the technical meaning of Magical thinking (from Anthropology):
In anthropology, psychology and cognitive science magical thinking is causal reasoning that often includes such ideas as the law of contagion, correlation equalling causation, the power of symbols and the ability of the mind to affect the physical world.


We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the objective and subjective modes need to be better integrated.

All explanations are akin to 'Art' because they are finite constructs which aim at shedding some light onto what is beyond them. Even our best scientific theories are artistic renditions as they address some aspects of reality while leaving others out.

In the classical Indian scheme, there are 6 complementary views... none of which paints the whole picture... these views are called:

Nyaya: Sets forth the rules and limits of thought/logic/language
Vaisheshika: Analysis (an ancient atomic theory is part of this approach)
Samkhya: An atheistic, dualistic approach which posits an essential difference between matter and mind
Yoga: Gnosis
Mimamsa: A theistic approach
Vedanta: Posits an essential non-duality

These are considered complementary approaches. Nyaya-Vaisheshika are together fairly close to the modern scientific method. In India, these different approaches do not vie for ultimate supremacy. This fight between 'science' and 'religion' is a Western, not a universal feature.

by sandalwood on Fri Jan 4th, 2008 at 12:10:53 PM EST
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Excellent.  Welcome to ET, sandalwood.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sun Jan 6th, 2008 at 12:55:47 PM EST
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Thank you Metavision... a pleasure to make your acquaintance.
by sandalwood on Sun Jan 6th, 2008 at 02:29:16 PM EST
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