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I always think that one of the reasons why I am an atheist is the excellence of the compulsory religious (ie christian) education I received at school. I'd been taught the broad outlines of most of the Bible story (all contradictions carefully skated over). However, for somebody like me being even moderately attentive, it was unavoidable that some of the more obvious kookery of the early bible would begin to make me question exactly what separated christianity from any of the other religions in the world, or other folk tales, myths and hob-goblins.

Yes, really I was nine when I asked what made the god of chrisianity more believable than fairies at the bottom of the garden. I didn't get a good answer then, I have never had a good answer. Religion seems to be an indoctrination and brainwashing. Some work by awe, incense and ineffeable mysteries that surely only immpress the pompous or feeble minded (hello, Mr Blair). Others just have a hand-wringing attitude of please like us, we'll change the scripture to suit you if you join.

Most versions of christianity seem to be very embarrassed about the central person of christ himself. Oh, everything is done in His Name. But nobody seems to remember what he actually stood for, cos that would be embarrassing.

So, having asked awkward questions you open a curtain and ask what it's for. You realise that only the poor dumb saps who preach in churches actually believe in this nonsense. Those who study it hard almost laugh at the naivety of the faithful, after all, they know what a lot of this stuff actually means. they know the original language, the original myths, they know what is what, waht isn't and what the useful lies are that must be adhered to.

So what is religion for ? Like I keep saying; it takes that most marvellous human impulse towards spirituality, the thing that buddha, Mohammed and Christ amongst others all tried to convey, and twists it for political purposes. Read the Old Testament, it's pretty plain. Got a political problem ? There'll always be some loony out in the desert babbling away useful solutions: If not, well you can always make your own.

Religion is just a political institution that succeeds by establishing a group of believers and making  fence around them and saying you are Truth and others are less loved. If you do what I say, you will remain Loved. Or else......

That's why I'm an atheist. God or gods may be unchallengable and right, but no man can speak for god. No man is their representative on earth and any man who claims such a position has not got my interests at heart. We only have to listen to the hate-filled pronouncements of those who claim divine inspiration to know that to be true.

By the time I found out about quakers, (some) buddhists and sufis I was way way too far into disbelief. I admire these people, they are good people and their spirituality is something I admire. But their systems and practice are props and sorcery that are hangovers from their history really. They don't need it. And neither do I.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 12:59:10 PM EST
compulsory religious (ie christian) education I received at school

Which reminds me of what lengths this pretense to the grandparents went for me: when we went to West Germany, the only reason my parents sent me to participate in Germany's semi-compulsory religious education at school was because the grandparents knew of the possibility. (Though for me, it wasn't as negative an experience as for you in Britain, maybe I'll expand on this in a next comment.)

Yes, really I was nine when I asked what made the god of chrisianity more believable than fairies at the bottom of the garden.

For me, it went the other way around: the first religions I learnt of (maybe age five or six), being Christian monotheism, the Greek pantheon, (what we were 'taught' as) North American Native American religion, and nomadic people's shamanism, were in the same category for me, and in the same category with fairies and dragons (and Santa). For me the notion of taking one of these seriously and not the others was new.

Religion is just a political institution that succeeds by establishing a group of believers and making  fence around them and saying you are Truth and others are less loved.

I think it is much more, and my diary tried to express some of this, but I'd have to return in another long comment (now have something to do).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 01:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obviously there are a number of atheists posting at this site. It would be interesting to explore what atheism means to us. In particular, I find myself very much out outside of traditional atheist views, and apparently behaviours, as I am currently a member of the RSOF. On the other hand there are no shortage of atheists within the RSOF. It is nice to think that the acceptance of Atheists (and Jews among others) is "systems and practice are props and sorcery that are hangovers from their history."  In a small part I think that it is even true. Early calls for religious tolerance of Jews and Muslims, as well as early support for Native American Spirituality in some cases over Christianity within a framework that outsiders call consensus seems to eventually have evolved to their logical conclusion - and now provide acceptance for atheists as true equals. As for whether we need it or not, that certainly is not up to you. Your own needs, on the other hand, are your own business, and no one has the right to tell you that you should seek organised, or for that matter unorganised religion. This is the area that bothers me a lot - the atheist version of if you don't believe you are going to hell.

Perhaps like the ex smoker being the most militant anti smoking I am quite conscious of a very strong anti-religion streak within myself. In part it was through exploring this anti-religious streak that I ended up where I am.

For myself too, I became an atheist at fairly young age - unable to find answers to who created god that were remotely satisfying. I have not yet found any answers that are remotely satisfying for myself, but I do note that others have found answers to questions that are important to them that satisfy them. For them, they have a belief in god that I do not share. This does not bother me long as they don't think I am any less for it.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 04:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there such a thing as "traditional atheist views"? Does anyone find themselves inside it or is it a cathegory defined to describe others?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess "traditional atheist views" are either (1) views of atheists publicly speaking out against religion, probably on a positivist and humanist basis; (2) caricatures drawn by the dominant religious group and internalised from local community at an early age.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps it is an unfair categorization.

On the other hand perhaps it refers to the view that people who engage in religious activities are at best misguided and the whole world wold be better if only everyone were atheists - sort of like John Lennon's song Imagine.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I usually refer to that as missionary atheism. And I suspect that a minority of atheists (depending on definition) are missionary. Though the silent atheists do not get much press.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case, I have made an unfair categorization, and I retract it.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  • first, personal beliefs. Atheism (believing there is no god) and agnosticism (not knowing if there is a god) are often conflated;

  • second, attitudes to churches as organised social and political actors. I am vigorously opposed to religion playing any part in politics, because religion is about absolutes (life and death), and inevitably leads to 'ends justify the means' policies and attitudes. Putting organised religion in politics inevitably brings totalitarianism or authoritarianism, because of the very nature of religion;

  • third, opinion on what can inspire morality and ethics. I see no problem whatsoever with one's spirituality or religious beliefs driving values and political behavior; I'd just like the courtesy returned, and in particular, the acceptation of the idea that morality and ethics can come from elsewhere than religion or religious practice.

I'm not sure which one of the last two points organised religion hates most; both usually get one the label of "fanatical atheist".

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 10:09:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Organised religion is a rather huge area with an incredible range of diversity in beliefs. You are falling into two traps:

One size fits all
The past is the present

In the recent provincial election in Ontario the ruling Conservative Party decided to import US policies into Canada and made as one of their platforms the promise of public funding of religious schools. Even in the Bible belt of Ontario the platform had 30% support. It's hard to say how badly this hurt the Conservatives, but they lost the election.

One might conclude that churches and their members tend to support a separation of church and state - fairly strongly at least in Ontario. (Interestingly enough the Catholic Church receives public funding - but that is a whole new topic.)

second, attitudes to churches as organised social and political actors. I am vigorously opposed to religion playing any part in politics, because religion is about absolutes (life and death), and inevitably leads to 'ends justify the means' policies and attitudes. Putting organised religion in politics inevitably brings totalitarianism or authoritarianism, because of the very nature of religion;

Religion is about absolutes (life and death) is one of those one size fits all statements. It is often true, it may even be true almost all the time (but I wouldn't be willing to bet on that). It certainly isn't true all the time. We use models to help us understand the world. They help make extremely complicated things understandable. You have presented a model. (In one sense religion is also model.) The point about models though is that they are not true representations, they are simplifications.

The rest of the quote I have taken is even more problematic. Not necessary false - just more problematic.

  • Simple statements that ignore the original role that religion played - including being a social safety net. This role is still played by churches.

  • It ignores the role of philosophy that is integral to what religion is.

  • The blanket statement of "Politics" is practically meaningless in trying to sort out what you mean. A huge number of churches are backing the Earth Charter for example. Locally we engaged in action in opposition to indefinite deletion without trial that was taking place in Canada under the guise of fighting terrorism. As well we have supported Gay marriage. In Nazi Germany our faith is recognised for having hid political prisoners against the laws of the state. We are probably the original reason that one can confirm instead of swear on the bible in court, and early in our history we helped instituted fixed price selling instead of bargening. Are these "politics"? Advocating on behalf of the poor and downtrodden is a very long standing tradition of religion. Is this "politics"? How about deliberately breaking the law?

As far as atheist morality and ethics being unacceptable - Our local Unitarian Universalists get along quite well at our local interfaith group. I don't get that feeling at all. When I look at US fundamentalism though, I know exactly what you speak of. But you have presented one size fits all.

The site Religioustolerance.org attempts to define what religion is. It starts off by saying none are totally satisfying.

This is the 1990 Barns and Noble (Cambridge) Encyclopaedia:

"...no single definition will suffice to encompass the varied sets of traditions, practices, and ideas which constitute different religions."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_defn.htm

Think about it for a bit. If Barns and Noble can't come up with a definition of religion because it is too complex, simple statements about religion are almost guaranteed to be inaccurate at best.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 02:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I wonder about, especially given your last paragraph, is whether your view of official religion is most informed by an alienated nature of the Anglican Church as you met it when young.

But I agued in the diary that 'heartfelt' nature, family bonding, dogmatism, and political institution functions can go hand-in-hand. I do think that religion's most important feature is self-perpetuation (in various ways), but I think the political function is secondary. I think the political function can develop around a religious group, originally for the purpose of increasing the enforcement of dogma, and those heaved into a position of power get to love it, rather than the other way. But at the same time at other levels, community, family and individual levels, religion serves quite other objectives.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 06:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I agued in the diary that 'heartfelt' nature, family bonding, dogmatism, and political institution functions can go hand-in-hand. I do think that religion's most important feature is self-perpetuation (in various ways), but I think the political function is secondary. I think the political function can develop around a religious group, originally for the purpose of increasing the enforcement of dogma, and those heaved into a position of power get to love it, rather than the other way. But at the same time at other levels, community, family and individual levels, religion serves quite other objectives.

Oh I don't doubt that this is a pretty reasonable summary of how religion works within a community. My difficulty is that those leaders use the consent of the laity for purposes that are quite malign. They twist the message to suit more contemporary propaganda. The kindness of the community becomes the cosy gaily lit shop front for a slaughter-house of principles where gays can be traduced (and rightfully killed), where women's health and lives can be sacrificed on the blood stained altars of morality, honour and  control.

The community may be comfortable, but wickedness is perpetuated in their name.

and worse, the true spititual impulse is diverted into voodoo, losing itself in muddy backwaters of arcane ritual.

And as someobdy once said, the proportion of religious to non-religious people in jails is precisely the same as the rest of the population, so it's not even a noticeable force for good.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 09:21:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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