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Obviously there are a number of atheists posting at this site. It would be interesting to explore what atheism means to us. In particular, I find myself very much out outside of traditional atheist views, and apparently behaviours, as I am currently a member of the RSOF. On the other hand there are no shortage of atheists within the RSOF. It is nice to think that the acceptance of Atheists (and Jews among others) is "systems and practice are props and sorcery that are hangovers from their history."  In a small part I think that it is even true. Early calls for religious tolerance of Jews and Muslims, as well as early support for Native American Spirituality in some cases over Christianity within a framework that outsiders call consensus seems to eventually have evolved to their logical conclusion - and now provide acceptance for atheists as true equals. As for whether we need it or not, that certainly is not up to you. Your own needs, on the other hand, are your own business, and no one has the right to tell you that you should seek organised, or for that matter unorganised religion. This is the area that bothers me a lot - the atheist version of if you don't believe you are going to hell.

Perhaps like the ex smoker being the most militant anti smoking I am quite conscious of a very strong anti-religion streak within myself. In part it was through exploring this anti-religious streak that I ended up where I am.

For myself too, I became an atheist at fairly young age - unable to find answers to who created god that were remotely satisfying. I have not yet found any answers that are remotely satisfying for myself, but I do note that others have found answers to questions that are important to them that satisfy them. For them, they have a belief in god that I do not share. This does not bother me long as they don't think I am any less for it.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 04:45:50 PM EST
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Is there such a thing as "traditional atheist views"? Does anyone find themselves inside it or is it a cathegory defined to describe others?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess "traditional atheist views" are either (1) views of atheists publicly speaking out against religion, probably on a positivist and humanist basis; (2) caricatures drawn by the dominant religious group and internalised from local community at an early age.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:47:40 PM EST
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Perhaps it is an unfair categorization.

On the other hand perhaps it refers to the view that people who engage in religious activities are at best misguided and the whole world wold be better if only everyone were atheists - sort of like John Lennon's song Imagine.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:28:40 PM EST
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I usually refer to that as missionary atheism. And I suspect that a minority of atheists (depending on definition) are missionary. Though the silent atheists do not get much press.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case, I have made an unfair categorization, and I retract it.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  • first, personal beliefs. Atheism (believing there is no god) and agnosticism (not knowing if there is a god) are often conflated;

  • second, attitudes to churches as organised social and political actors. I am vigorously opposed to religion playing any part in politics, because religion is about absolutes (life and death), and inevitably leads to 'ends justify the means' policies and attitudes. Putting organised religion in politics inevitably brings totalitarianism or authoritarianism, because of the very nature of religion;

  • third, opinion on what can inspire morality and ethics. I see no problem whatsoever with one's spirituality or religious beliefs driving values and political behavior; I'd just like the courtesy returned, and in particular, the acceptation of the idea that morality and ethics can come from elsewhere than religion or religious practice.

I'm not sure which one of the last two points organised religion hates most; both usually get one the label of "fanatical atheist".

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 10:09:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Organised religion is a rather huge area with an incredible range of diversity in beliefs. You are falling into two traps:

One size fits all
The past is the present

In the recent provincial election in Ontario the ruling Conservative Party decided to import US policies into Canada and made as one of their platforms the promise of public funding of religious schools. Even in the Bible belt of Ontario the platform had 30% support. It's hard to say how badly this hurt the Conservatives, but they lost the election.

One might conclude that churches and their members tend to support a separation of church and state - fairly strongly at least in Ontario. (Interestingly enough the Catholic Church receives public funding - but that is a whole new topic.)

second, attitudes to churches as organised social and political actors. I am vigorously opposed to religion playing any part in politics, because religion is about absolutes (life and death), and inevitably leads to 'ends justify the means' policies and attitudes. Putting organised religion in politics inevitably brings totalitarianism or authoritarianism, because of the very nature of religion;

Religion is about absolutes (life and death) is one of those one size fits all statements. It is often true, it may even be true almost all the time (but I wouldn't be willing to bet on that). It certainly isn't true all the time. We use models to help us understand the world. They help make extremely complicated things understandable. You have presented a model. (In one sense religion is also model.) The point about models though is that they are not true representations, they are simplifications.

The rest of the quote I have taken is even more problematic. Not necessary false - just more problematic.

  • Simple statements that ignore the original role that religion played - including being a social safety net. This role is still played by churches.

  • It ignores the role of philosophy that is integral to what religion is.

  • The blanket statement of "Politics" is practically meaningless in trying to sort out what you mean. A huge number of churches are backing the Earth Charter for example. Locally we engaged in action in opposition to indefinite deletion without trial that was taking place in Canada under the guise of fighting terrorism. As well we have supported Gay marriage. In Nazi Germany our faith is recognised for having hid political prisoners against the laws of the state. We are probably the original reason that one can confirm instead of swear on the bible in court, and early in our history we helped instituted fixed price selling instead of bargening. Are these "politics"? Advocating on behalf of the poor and downtrodden is a very long standing tradition of religion. Is this "politics"? How about deliberately breaking the law?

As far as atheist morality and ethics being unacceptable - Our local Unitarian Universalists get along quite well at our local interfaith group. I don't get that feeling at all. When I look at US fundamentalism though, I know exactly what you speak of. But you have presented one size fits all.

The site Religioustolerance.org attempts to define what religion is. It starts off by saying none are totally satisfying.

This is the 1990 Barns and Noble (Cambridge) Encyclopaedia:

"...no single definition will suffice to encompass the varied sets of traditions, practices, and ideas which constitute different religions."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_defn.htm

Think about it for a bit. If Barns and Noble can't come up with a definition of religion because it is too complex, simple statements about religion are almost guaranteed to be inaccurate at best.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 02:52:58 PM EST
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